Thinking of a career? Think again.

An interesting perspective and one that I cannot find fault with. Over the past 30 years, I have spent endless hours training college graduates on how to do the job they got their degree in. Too often college spends time on trends and takes a pass on the practical. It is unfortunate that a college degree is expected for ‘secretaries’ these days, which to my mind says a college degree is the equivalent of a high school diploma when I graduated. The difference being you have to pay for a degree.

It wouldn’t be so bad if graduates came out with a general knowledge from art to science to philosophy and had some idea of how to think. Or, if they came out with a practical skill, I wouldn’t be quite so negative. However, since the vast majority of graduates I deal or have dealt with lack these characteristics, I don’t think my experience is out of the ordinary.

I think the best advice is for each high school graduate to start a business and learn how the world works.

-- When you give someone a chance it may well be their last.

You might want to give them courses in high school on how to use the welfare system, also.

-- Tim -- http://tmuli.com

My biggest problem with college is the required courses that have no revelance to what your in school for in the first place. They make you take certain courses to give you a well rounded education. When in fact they are making you take the course so they can keep enough funding to departments that may not be that popular! K-12 is supposed to give you the well rounded education. College should be based on your selected field. What if you don’t know what you want to be? Well you should be able to take some introductory courses in several different fields. See what you might like. But that is heavilly frowned upon. They are steered towards general studies (Liberal Arts), which is math, history, science, art, music, etc. This is absolutely wrong in my opinion. That is the same thing they were just doing in high school. It gives them no additional idea in choosing a career field. Just more of what they just had. How is that supposed to help? I spent alot of time and money in college. After 2 years I stopped going to my counselor. Absolutely no use to me what so ever. I finally made my choice after a while and finished a degree. This was after I took some courses that I was interested in.

-- Ben, Living the good life in Maine now (almost, just need to retire in 2 decades time)

...then we have the case of the fellow (Me) who dropped out of college. Made good money in construction and now feels his body falling apart along with the economy. What to do at 49 years of age…maybe that college thing would have been a good idea. Then again at the time I would not listen…you know cause the college think was so screwed up.

-- http://www.woodsongsfurniture.com

I mostly agree… I graduated college in 2002, took a great job that I could have gotten without going to college (had experience and connections), worked it for a few years through two promotions, and then decided that I would rather be a friggin’ poor carpenter…. So, I moved back across the country and opened a cabinet/furniture shop, got my contractors license and started doing some remodels. Found out that I was really bad at running my own business (B.A. in Business Administration with a concentration in Management), and just recently went back to work for a friend who is a really reputable remodeling contractor (he worked directly under Sam Walton for about 25 yrs before retiring, and has been a great wealth of knowledge and business inspiration for me).

I graduated with a 3.8 GPA and sometimes feel like I don’t know $%^&. And, I still owe Uncle Sam over $30k. But, I did have a nice ‘experience’; mostly outside the classroom. Not sure if it was worth it. There is some level of internal debate going on about that.

Also, just as a kicker, my education is nearly obsolete at this point since I have been out of school for 6 years. According to my profs, there is about a ten year period of validiy for a business education. Guess I’d better decide in the next couple if I want to go back to being a suit…

-- Jarrod, Eagle Nest, NM http://anthologyfinefurniture.wordpress.com

As a lifelong career counselor, I agree. The diploma isn’t everything. I have a doctorate my son has a few community college courses. He has passed me in income and he lovers what he’s doing. I’m glad I got the college for what I’m doing but it wasn’t necessary. I advise people now to decide on career and then get just the courses necessary. Many employers are now looking for skills not degrees. Some careers require the degree but not all.

-- Bruce from Central New York

i am sorry guys but i completely disagree with you. without further education i would still be stuck on the floor installing hardwood,it was good money but killed my back and feet. if i didn’t have red rocks to teach me how to build great furniture i’d still be haten life.you get back what you put in is all i have to saw.

-- Roper - master of sawdust-

I just realized I should follow up to my original reply; I’ve already spent an hour this morning looking into the Master’s program in Community & Regional Planning from UNM…. Like I said, I mostly agree. I’m still a little torn. I also have completed about half of the curriculum for a Master’s in Construction Management from my alma mater.

-- Jarrod, Eagle Nest, NM http://anthologyfinefurniture.wordpress.com

Nobody says you have to do labor-intensive work like that; what about opening a Subway franchise, or handyman service?

The point is, there are other avenues than college….that’s all.

-- -Be Blessed!, Patrick

I think you can draw a distinction between general four year degrees and specialized trade schools. I think completion of an advanced trade course is very beneficial in the real world, I also think the trade journeyman/apprenticeship programs are also excellent. I went to school route, got a job right after, drawing adds for a telephone directory. I showed up for my first day and sat down in a room whith 23 other illustrators, all of which were some of the most talented I had ever seen, but those were the longest 8 hours I ever spent, no jokes, nobody smiled, I was a clip artist before there was clip art. That was a thursday, after work I was walking down by the pier in seattle and I saw a help wanted add for fisherman in alsaka, on friday morning I got on the boat, the northern victor and we sailed to alaska, 3 months later I got off the plane in seattle and went straight to the bar, 7 days later I was broke and I hitch hiked back across the mountains and went to work. dug ditches, packed sheetrock and then one day I got stuck with the grouchiest old man I ever met. His name was Darrel, he was a finish carpenter and painter. He complained constantly, but after a while I began to understand that he truly loved his job, he had absolutely no regrets. He died about 10 years ago but he taught me an important lesson, “it will never be good enough, but sometimes it will have to do”. So I guess based upon my personal experience, trade school’s and appreniceships are excellent, college if you can afford it won’t hurt you, but when your ready to start the blisters and blood can’t be avoided.

-- If knowledge is not shared, it is forgotten.

I really don’t have any advice for anyone on the type of school they should attend because everyone is different, but this post will at least make them think.

The post did remind me of a funny story.

Years ago I saw a friend of mine who was a laborer and had a very bright son away at college. I asked him how his son was doing and this was his reply.

“He’s doing great Brian and he is studying Liberal Arts. Last Sunday I looked in the help wanted section of the paper and could not find one damn job for a Liberal Artist so I hope he knows what he is doing”.

I guess he should of read the political section of the paper. :))

-- There is no such thing as scrap wood!, http://www.saltrivergallery.com

BrianM,

I agree to a certain extent. Both of my Parents were Teachers. My Mom has a Master’s Degree in Education while my Dad has a Bachelor’s Degree in Education as well as an Associates Degree in Automotive from Wyo Tech. My Dad went back to school when I was 5 for his Bachelor’s Degree. This changed the way we lived enormously, we now all had 3 months off in the summer every year, or 3 months every year to run other businesses :-). Teachers in MT do not make very good money. But neither of them are Teachers now. My Mom is County Superintendent of Schools and my Dad is a guy who does all sorts of odd jobs from installing solar systems, sprinkler systems, wells, dirt work, built their 90 space campground almost by himself, water lines for stock tanks and a candidate for a State Senate seat.

Both of my Grandfathers were in the service and both were Union Workers, one Carpenter and one Chemist at a refinery. They got their education on the job while getting paid to do it and for a time my Father was a Union Machinist for the Railroad.

Fast forward many years and I am looking at going to college, I know that I don’t want to spend a fortune on it, as I am footing my own bill and I know that I like helping people. So I enroll at the College of Technology for an AAS in Practical Nursing. After 1 year and a group of students that I don’t necessarily want to be involved with, I go to the main campus for a year and take other courses like art and anthropology and a few others. I then go back to finish my degree, I’m not a lifetime student, all the while I am also working full time for $8/hour at a job where I am respected and I like the people I work for and with, but it is $8/hour. I also meet the LOML, he is a Mechanic at the place I work, a graduate of Wyo Tech as well. I finish school, pass my boards, quit working for $8/hour, they liked me, but not enough to ever give me a raise and they went through about 8 people trying to replace me. I start working for $14.50/hour and learn way more from the Doctor I work with than anything I learned in school. The LOML & I get engaged, and a day before our wedding we get a letter saying that he was hired at the Power Plant, Yipee!!! He will be making about the same amount that he is as a Mechanic, but I won’t get that opportunity as I quit my job, not interested in a 120mile one way commute and I go to work for $8/hour :-{. The LOML on the other hand gets an Apprenticeship and 6 years later is making over double what he was when he started and he will be turning out as a Journey Systems Operator in the next few months. This is enough that I don’t have to work and can stay at home and raise our two kids.

So, the moral to my story is that sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn’t, but those who want to succeed in life will do so, degree or not.

-- “There is scarcely anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper … and the buyers who consider price only are this man’s lawful prey.” John Ruskin

I would agree with the whole college run around. I went to a popular tech school (which I heard good things about) and 6 months into a two year program, I started regretting the choice to go there. Today, I’m in a technical field in which I only use what I believe to be about 5% of the $35K I had to pay to go to the lousy school.
Did you hear Europe has a new college program in which you get a degree in shelf stocking and retail management??? What a joke. Would you actually pay to learn to stock store shelves?
Note for everyone: Associates degrees are the new high school diploma. More than likely won’t even get you in the door anymore. I could go on for hours about this topic…lol

-- If I knew what I was doing, someone would be paying me to do it!

There are some ideas that you haven’t looked at. Technical schools or certificate programs thru colleges. I went to Emt and Paramedic school for about 2 years, spent about $5000. I then got on with a Fire dept that sent me to schools (thier money) to help finish my requirements. I make around 40-45g a year, and only work 1 day out of 3. I work a part time job and make about 20g from it. So, I think that I made a wise finical descision.

P.S. I get to paid to sleep.

-- Adrian ..... The 11th Commandment...."Thou Shalt Not Buy A Wobble Dado"

Somebody told me once that a college education was nothing more than a guided tour through about forty books. The trick is to read the right books.
I started at San Diego State University in 1979 intending to become a civil engineer. It took me all of one semester to change my mind- it just wasn’t interesting enough. So I changed my major to Industrial Arts, and I have never regretted it. Unfortunately, the program was eliminated a few years later because the folks in charge decided that Liberal Arts was more important than Applied Arts. Now there are fewer people qualified to teach shop, and fewer Industrial Arts programs in the high schools.
I am quite proud of my Industrial Arts degree- it was the ticket to good careers in plastics engineering and quality engineering, and now it is the foundation for my new business.

-- Furniture Medic- the prescription for damaged furniture

Very interesting discussion, so here are my 2 cents. I see no reason for someone to spend $100k on a college education if you do not graduate with a profession that has a salary scale to allow you to recoup your investment. Additionally, I advise the kids that work with me to get a degree in a specialty ie accountant, engineer, nurse, physical therapist, or even a pharmacist like myself etc… Notice I didn’t say Lawyer or Doctor because those are post graduate degrees which are even more money! 60 minutes did a story on this new phenomena in which recent grads are not making enough to even pay back their student loans, because they went to schools like Boston College at $45k a year to become a kindergarten teacher. You do the math.

On the other hand a trade is a fantastic option because your tuition is on the job training. You will learn a skill that although it may be cyclical, construction will not be outsourced to India. A Chinese factory cannot frame a house in Ohio… Frankly the best career decision I have seen were the handful of FDNY guys that I went to pharmacy school with. They worked while going through school by doing overnights and switching their schedules and it wasn’t easy for them to do, but now they have a pharmacy license and they will retire from the FDNY after doing 20yrs will full benefits for life and a pension. Brilliant.

Finally a medical field joke which is funny b/c it is true: A woman rushes home from the doctor’s office to meet the plumber and is complaining that her copay was $100 for a full physical with blood work and everything. The plumber hands her the $300 bill for fixing a pipe in her basement that took less than an hour. As she happily writes the check the plumber says to her, hey that doctor’s bill isn’t bad, I used to charge more than that back when I was practicing medicine.

Quite interesting. I have 3 children, all grown. Two married with children. One newly single with child. My oldest daughter is an LPN, married to a man with a collage education. He makes over $150K a year working from home on the internet for IBM. No this is not what he went to collage for, but he did need a degree to get this job. My daughter (the LPN) in back in school to be an RN. She wants to make more money. I taught them to be ready to work. Fine with her, she wants more money.

My son has his own business. No collage, his knowledge came from the Army. He was not trained on computers, but since there was no war he got a job in an office and learned. He now has a ‘Computer Medic’ business. His wife (collage educated) is supporting them as a social worker. They don’t make $100K. They are happy, his business is growing and doing fine.

My youngest is the most wild. She is slightly learning disabled. Collage was never an option. Quit high school, ran away and got married. Got divorced, and a GED. Quit a good factory job and moved from OH to FL with her daughter. Stayed with a girlfriend worked and started her own cleaning business. She now supports her self and lives in a beautiful home. She does not make $100k She does not work every day, takes her kid to the beach and Disneyland and she is home when her daughter gets home from school. They are very happy too.

I guess the key is as long as you are happy doing what you are doing then, you are doing great. Is collage important? Depends on what you want to do.

-- Berta in NC

Steelmum, you reminded me of something.

A week ago, I decieded to have some things sharpened – things I was not capable of doing. Now, I live in Rochester, NY – the third largest city in all of NYS. There is only 3 sharpening services that I could find in the general metropolitan area! One in the northwest, one in the northeast, and one in Rochester downtown, which was where I had to go – none in the southeast area of Rochester, where I live ! I asked around, including a Woodcraft store and my lumber supplier, and they can’t find anyone nearby either to source customers out to! I wish I had a buddy looking open a business (or “buy a job” as they say), I’d point him towards a sharpening service. From what I can see, these guys can gross $30 an hour, which is not too bad – when they have probably about $5k in tools.

Taking it to the next level, like my little brain always does, I can only guess how well a mobile sharpening service would do. I would pay premium for a guy to park in my driveway, let me hand him some tools, and have in sharpen them on the spot!

If any of you guys out there are looking for a biz opportunity, maybe this note is the ship coming into your port!

-- -Be Blessed!, Patrick

Pashley,

Why buy the equipment? Go to Jackson Saw and knife in Rochester and cut a volume discount wholesale price on sharpening. Then to to Woodcraft, all the lumber yards and cabinet shops and offer a pickup and delivery service. Of course, you can now add the famous ”fuel surcharge” to all work.

Around here there is a major sharpening service that has a pick up and delivery service to all lumber yards and wood shops. Does not sound like anyone is doing that in your area. Please don’t forget my 10%. :)))

-- There is no such thing as scrap wood!, http://www.saltrivergallery.com

“Rich Dad Poor Dad” are written around this subject, these series are well written.

I graduated from High school because I put in my time and passed the minimum requirements. I could not spell and without spell check still can’t. My grammar is atrocious. I started working for my Dad, a Roofing Contractor before I got out of high school and haven’t stopped. I was the youngest of six so my Dad retired after about four years after I started and I continued with a brother in the field. We stayed at it for 27 years together until I bought him out. I learned a lot the hard way and lost a lot of money, if I was thinking of a college coarse it would be a business coarse. I pay a CPA, Insurance broker and a Lawyer where my education is lacking. The lawyer charges $150.00 an hour, with the right equipment and crews I can make that also. However it has taken many years and hard labor to get here and my body feels it. I have been roofing for 37 years and haven’t installed a roof in about 8 years, at this point I consult and specialize in repairs and hang seamless rain gutters. I have also rehabbed many houses over the years and continued to trade up or be a landlord with ones I did not live in.
I would not be where I am at now if I had worked by the hour all of those years. Owning your own business allows you to use 100% of some of the money you make before taxes to invest in equipment and have tax write offs. A portion of my property I charge the company rent and depreciate the building. I do believe if I had a better education I would have been here sooner, I don’t know if the would have been a four year degree or not. My son is in the process of taking over, he is smarter, (ask him) he doesn’t have a degree but he has had a better education and 3.5 years in the Army. He better be smarter my business has dropped 50% due to the housing he will be learning to make it in a very difficult time. I have gone through this a couple of times but never this sever, I am fortunate that I have built a trusting relationship with my customers and in my community. I call my wood shop my retirement center and I practice on the weekends, my weekends are quite often 3 days and my work days very from 6 to 10 hours, my choice its nice to be the boss.

P.S. Thanks to who ever invented spell check. ( Was that Al Gore or was that the internet he invented?)

-- Ron Central, CA

I was blessed to have parents that payed for my education. I took a two year vocational course in cabinet building and house construction. Then I went on and got a BSE in Industrial Arts and taught for 5 years. I got out of teaching because of the poor pay. I went to prison industries and worked in three different states. I was a supervisor, furniture design and did all the bidding for the industries high dollar accounts. In the three states I was able to set up a custom wood division and over see the operations. I also ran a custom cabinet business in North Dakota beside work at the prision full time. I am retired now and wanting to start up a small cabinet business again. I feel my education helped me in my working life.

Young people might want to think about working for prison industries. Good pay, good benifits and good retirerment. I made $65K a year when I retired, worked Monday thru Friday and had a months vacation a year.

God Bless
tom

-- Mc Bridge Cabinets, Iowa

Education comes in many forms, high school, college, grad school, med school, technical school, on the job training, apprentice programs, etc.

I would not want a surgeon working on my car not would I want a mechanic working on my tonsils.

MANY people only find what they want to do in life ONLY after they are doing it! Therefoe the more you learn the great chance of finding a career (regardless of what it is) that you will enjoy. You must figure what you want to do with your life, then decide how you plan on paying for it.

I have a Bachelors Degree in Communications, an MBA, and consider myself educated by the book, but trained in my business.

An education prepares you, and opens doors, nothing more.

One most differentiate between education and training! Training in most cases begins on the job, even for doctors and auto mechanics.

-- Jeff T in Westport CT.

Education comes in many forms, high school, college, grad school, med school, technical school, on the job training, apprentice programs, etc.

I would not want a surgeon working on my car not would I want a mechanic working on my tonsils.

MANY people only find what they want to do in life ONLY after they are doing it! Therefoe the more you learn the greater chance in finding a career (regardless of what it is) that YOU will enjoy. You must figure what you want to do with your life, then decide how you plan on paying for it.

I have a Bachelors Degree in Communications, and an MBA, and consider myself educated by the book, but trained in my business. A book will prepare you but not train you.

An education prepares you, and opens doors, nothing more.

One most differentiate between education and training! Training in most cases begins on the job, even for doctors and auto mechanics. Hopefully they have learned where your tonils and fuel pump are via a book before they opened your mouth or your hood.

-- Jeff T in Westport CT.

Fifty years ago you didn’t need a college degree to get a decent job, but if you had a degree, it made a difference in your early career. Now you need a degree to get any kind of job, but it doesn’t help much in getting ahead. Many employers, especially the big ones, use the degree requirement as a blind sorting tool. Resumes are first evaluated electronically and those without the prerequisites are never seen again.

I agree that a college degree today is about the equivalent of a high school diploma 50 years ago.

Young people today are sometimes so overwhelmed with the debt they accumulate while getting a college education that they are in financial ruin even before they can get started in a career.