I just gotta blow off some steam somewhere, This looks like a good spot.
Now I don't want to sound like a complaining type, I'm not, but there is a guy that is posting work under the pretense that he is responsible for the creation & execution of the projects he is posting, when in fact someone else was the creator and a lot of other people around him did the work. If you own a restoration company and are paying employees to restore a piece for you, I don't care to see it, I am not saying it is not worth looking at, I am saying that LJ's is not a place for plagiarism.
While I'm at it I don't like folks pretending that they created some very artistic piece with detailed carvings in it when it was a C n C machined piece, if you machined it-SAY SO-and stop pretending you are a master.
There now I feel better
You bring up an interesting point…..Were is the line drawn as far as what is considered your own work when using a CNC router.It is similar to question in music when using drum machines as apposed to using acoustic drums to create beats by your own hand.IMHO I agree with your frustration if you create a piece with CNC router you should not infer in any way that it has been hand carved. Not say that it can't be creative using a CNC router were you have solely drawn out the design by hand.
I agree, sir. I have seen projects posted that are from plans in magazines , etc. without stating so. I hope it is an oversight of the poster. I just think give credit where credit is due. I do think the majority of posts are honest and the proper credit is given. Also ditto Chipy's remark.
i own a compucarve machine, and i totally agree with you. i've used it to add decoration to a few pieces i've built. i don't pretend that it's my handiwork, and don't present myself as carver in any sense. there is a member on this site that uses the same machine (i can tell because he uses the same stock designs). he presents it as his own work, and it bothers me. i think it's dishonest.
I have to agree that if you pay for work done that you shouldn't claim it as your own work.
As for woodworkers using CNC and Cravewright type machines its their form of woodworking and IMHO is not any different than using a lathe duplicator in making duplicate parts.
I see woodworkers as 3 types of woodworkers, power tool woodworkers, hand tool woodworkers and combination tool woodworkers. Each choosing their own style of woodworking.
While I may not appreciate some forms of woodworking. I do feel that every woodworker should own their woodworking for what it is, good, bad or indifferent. From beginner to professional its what gets us in the shop to do some form of woodworking.
You know the fact that people are willing to get of the couch and create something says a lot! If someone builds a project fro hand tools, power tolls are what ever, who cares. It is all about what you are in to. I use both and am just as proud of the finished product. Those of you that have to criticize others for not agreeing with you and your way have problems much deeper than I care to go into. Get a life, if you have a hobby and are told you are one of the best enjoy it but let others have fun at what ever they choose. As for the guys that say they created something and have paid employees doing the work, How many Lane cedar chest do you think were built by the same person, so who gets the credit, Lane! The others get paid and feed the family!
Agreed, Lizardhead! Though there is a gray area regarding so-called 'repurposing' projects using pre-existing components manufactured by others, and even restoration projects, they should be somehow identified separately and segregated from truly hand-built projects. Any items prefabricated, like carved or turned legs for example, should be mentioned in the original project description. What really drives me crazy are the built-in china closets, kitchen island cabinets, and custom doors and windows, etc, that CLEARLY belong in the "Home Refurbers" project pages below, not here in Lumberjocks. That site could sure use a little more traffic!
I recommend you take it up with the individual posting the work.
The issue as I understand it is that the individual seems to be claiming
authorship of all these pieces when in fact they come out of a larger
millwork shop he works in and/or owns?
Deception by omission is still deception. Saying "I did the design drawings
and sold the job and 3 of my employees executed the lion's share of the
work" would be more honest and more educational to readers as well,
since a statement acknowledges the collaborative nature of running
a shop that does more work than 1 person can handle.
Lizardhead?
So bottom line, you feel that everyone should take time to include the build method when showing off a project. I am ok with that. If we are going to enjoy viewing a project, we do want to know how you accomplished certain task unless we know it all. I think it is ok to just say this project was built with a combination of hand and power tools but thought you may enjoy the design and finish.
Bottom line, I see you have been here for a while and hope to learn from you and the others that truly have a pashion for building things with there hands.
As someone who does traditional wood working I agree with you There is a huge difference between CNC carving and traditional carving . I don't have any problem with using any power tool just say so . It's just a matter of different skills not a lack of skill . Honestly though the CNC machine could just as easily make the same part out of plastic or metal and the design could be bought from a third party .
Most of you get my point-For those who missed it-I don't like thief's nor do I care for folks who claim to have done something they clearly had not--If you want to post something that you bought and changed, say so or people will assume you are some kind of master craftsman when your not. Don't piss on me and tell me it's raining
Don: Sorry I just have to poke it. Maybe it's wounded and needs help. Maybe lost and needs direction. But most likely has self esteem problems and needs reassurance.
ummmmm… ok… I agrea to a point including the music comment as I am also a musican but with drum machines like the cnc you have to program and get the timing, fills, rolls, intro and outro to work withthe complete song or track.
There are many musicans that do not even write their own songs or music… do you really believe Brintey Spares can write music… believe it or not Micheal Jackson did not write alot of his hits… most buy the rights to perfome the music from the music writer… (I have a couple of tracks like that that I sold…)
I am also a graphic artist and have seen other so call graphic artists use stock photo's and clip art in a lot of their work. Does it bother me… no… because thats what those images are for… the company has sold and made money on the discs that have the clip art etc… and it is help the graphic artist to do his job on some publications.
That is the part called royality free, you are allowed to resell as part of your works but you are not allowed to resell the clip art, or template itself etc.
I have nothing against automation of machines etc, as there is skill setting them up and programming them to do what you want. Just a different skill… same as do I use the table saw to cut or should hand cut… scroll saw or copping saw…. all give the same result each with a different skill.
The one that I believe that should be mentioned though is… "I did the lid… but my workers did the base… " ie; on my coffin project I could easily have said that I built it… but it was a joint effort with a friend…
I'm not really sure that a lot of indignation is warranted about this. If CNC work is advertised as "hand carved", that's an obvious lie, but if it's advertisied as "carved", there's no lying going on. If the reader makes an unwarranted assumption, it's on them, isn't it?
As far as who does the actual work, how many contractors enjoy a great reputation for quality work even though their crew(s) does the actual labor. How many college courses did you take that were supposedly taught by Professor So and So - but you only actually saw a graduate assistant. Do you really believe that Phyfe or Stickney personally made all their pieces - or was much of it done by unamed apprentices or employees?
There is a difference between creativity and handicraft and both are deserving of accolade. If I create an idea and pay people to execute the work, I still deserve credit… it is my creation. Likewise, if I create something unique and have it machined, it is my creation. Beyond that, I'm not familiar with the specific complaints so I can't really comment further.
If the reader makes an unwarranted assumption, it's on them, isn't it?
Man, I hope this site is more than this.
People who post one photo leave me wondering if they made it or bought it at Ikea. No photos showing the progression of the build. No photos showing the sides, back or bottom. I think I get what Lizardhead is talking about. Giving the viewer the real facts….............
I agree with a caveat. If you look at a lot of the old masters, they ran shops with multiple employees all working together on a project. That's how a lot of those masterpieces got done. You look at a Stickley or a Phyfe, they all had a lot of workers building things that they put their names on. I'm not saying what you say is wrong, but historically speaking, this isn't a new phenomenon.
I was thinking the same thing. I was surprised when I learned how long ago commercial furniture making was subcontracted to specialists - turners, carvers, inlayers, finishers,...
By 1850 in the eastern US, almost all the small shops near the coast were out of business - in places like Boston, New York and Providence. They were replaced by factory-like manufacturing. Most of the remaining small shops were inland, where the population was less dense and the shipping costs from the coast cities was prohibitive. At that time, shipping a large piece of furniture from England to the US east coast was cheaper than shipping it from the east coast to a location 25 miles inland!
Giving the viewer the real facts…….......... would probably bore them to tears. - lol
I usually offer new customers progress pictures so they can see their project "grow" from a pile of lumber to the finished product. Only a few have ever wanted to see them. Most customers just want the finished product to meet their expectations when it's sitting in their home. How I got there is of little to no interest to them.
To speak strictly from the perspective of the Lumberjock membership, it is inherently wrong to post personal projects here with work performed by others, and components manufactured by others without expressly stating so. Giving credit where credit is due for conceptualization and design is also our obligation when posting. That a Sheraton table may have had several artisans working on it, or that a Frank Lloyd Wright-designed home may never even have been visited by Frank Lloyd Wright himself, is not germaine to the discussion of wrongly representing your work as 'yours' in the LJ projects section as Lizardhead states in the OP.
Being one of those with virtually no imagination or creativity almost every woodworking project I undertake uses plans, pictures, ideas or designs I have seen or read about somewhere. I am just happy if I am able to execute the end result by whatever means are available to me. If the final piece of furniture or cabinet or whatever looks good and fulfills its purpose I am thrilled. And I have no qualms about telling anyone "I built that." Most of us here are amateurs, struggling to do things that pros consider routine. If someone posts a picture of a finished project why should I care if the poster is the one who actually did the work. They can lie to us all they want but they can't fool themselves. It just does not matter to me. I've got more important things to get upset about. If the project is something I like then I might even try and make one myself.
If someone posts a picture of a finished project why should I care if the poster is the one who actually did the work. They can lie to us all they want but they can't fool themselves. It just does not matter to me. I've got more important things to get upset about.
Woodenitbenice; Those are my EXACT thoughts and I did think them. You wrote them, mind if I take credit?
HA, dag I am a funny guy this morning!
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