As I rnear the end of a bench that my mother in law asked me to make, I realized I skipped an important step. I'm using a biscuit jointer for all the joinery. I put the full frame of the bench together and then realized that I neglected to also do the biscuit joining and glue up the slats that will support the plywood base of the seat. So, I thought I'd make a "shelf" for the slats to sit on attaching them with screws - but for some reason the "shelf" I made is not screwing firmly into the red oak - it is loose and my screws are just rotating and not penetrating the bench deeper when I'm using my drill to try and get a solid joint. I'm afraid to go deeper because I don't want to damage the outside of the bench. I'm attaching a couple of pictures. Any ideas on how I can put 3 or 4 slats on this bench so I can have a place to connect the plywood seat base that will be covered by an upholstered cushion.
I think using the screwed on board to sit the slats on top is a good idea. but why is it loose? there could be several reasons:
1. board and bench back are not straight causing the support board to rock on a pivot point against the bench back.
2. screw hole are not correct size - the screw holes in the support board should be larger than the screw shank so that the screws go in without biting. the screws should only bite on the bench back and pull the support board to it.
3. pilot hole in bench back was not large enough or too large for the screw causing it to lose grip with the back of the bench.
I suspect you are experiencing a mix of 2 and 3. and if that is indeed the case - make through holes in the support bat with your drill that are larger than the screw shanks. then clamp it to the bench back, and using the correct drill size for your screws transfer the holes to the bench back - use a depth stop the length of the screw so that you don't penetrate the bench back and use screws that are 1/4" shorter than the combined thickness of the bench back and your support bar so that there will not be a chance of penetrating through the bench back.
then screw the support bar to the bench - if you pilot holes are correct size you won't even need a power drill - it should go smoothly and lock tight. another thing is that power drills can easily over screw in wood… careful with that.
Assuming the 'shelf' and the side are 3/4" material, I would be tempted to use coarse thread Kreg screws 1 1/4" long and a bunch of Gorilla wood glue or Titebond II. Either glue is stronger than the wood is so the wood will break before the glue gives way.
Another way would be to add pieces across instead of along the length. Those could be secured with biscuits, dowels or pocket holes and glue.
Someone with more experience than I will chime in soon, but that's what I would consider.
When using Kreg screws in hardwood I've had better luck using the fine thread screw to get a tight fit. The coarse thread ones are recommended for softwoods. Glue and clamps should work too.
I would glue the seat supports on. The glue alone would be strong enough, IMO, but you can still come back and add screws for good measure after the glue dries.
Pilot Hole? Guess that was another step I skipped. My woodworking "green" is showing - just been doing this for about 9 months. Learning a ton. I'm going to try drilling pilot holes. But, someone mentioned just gluing it - will that work?
Pilot holes will help, be careful to drill the right size and depth for your screws. Clamps and glue will work as well, the bond will be stronger than the wood, as mentioned. I cant tell from the pictures, but the bench does not have finish on it yet, does it? If so, go with screws. If no finish, then glue, screws, brads, clamps/glue will all get you there. Always try to use pilot holes when working with screws in hardwoods. Your life will be easier. Good luck
Clamp the support on, mark the frame, then drill thru support and rail with a pilot bit. If you don't have a bit depth stop collar, wrap a bit of masking tape around the bit at the right depth. Take off support and enlarge those holes for the screw shank. Screw should be in the rail by at least 6 threads.
If you have a pocket hole jig I would seriously consider adding screws to the inside corners to reinforce it (take a guide off the jig and hold it in place in the corner with an F clamp) - as you are asking a lot from the biscuits alone, either that or make 3/8 red oak dowels you can glue in from the sides.
Looks good, it would be a shame for it to come apart.
ShaneA asked whether I had a finish on it yet. I've used min-wax wood conditioner followed by a min-wax stain. My thought process was that all the support would be hidden anyway so go ahead and stain without having to work around those pieces (I just stained those separately). So, with a stain on it, will the glue still work? I have not put the clear poly finish on yet.
Oh, and one more thing - those screws in the picture in the cleat which I now know is the more appropriate word for "shelf" - those are stuck. Any ideas on how to get them out without damaging the piece? They are just spinning round and round and I believe one is completely stripped.
I would have made the strips full length. Drilled and countersunk the screw holes, piloted the frame and glued and screwed. I agree with the others though, the screws are just to hold it until the glue dries, so nailing or clamping would work as well. The glue should hold as long as the stain is dry.
Did you use bisquits for the rail joints? Not sure that was a good idea. Anyone else care to comment on this? Seems like a weak joint for a stress point.
Back the screws out and make sure they are not snapped off. Since this is a seat, drive 2 nails, one on each end in a downward angle. Take out the screws and using the next larger size, same length and drive them by hand with a drop of glue on each screw. Here is the reason -
The nails have a much higher shear strength than screws but loosen over time. Screws hold tighter.
Drill driven screws either snap off or drill out the wood - so you need to hand tighten. If, after you run your pilot holes, slightly counter sink one of the holes on a side that they are together, the two pieces will be a lot tighter together.
I would make the rails full length, glue with Titebond 2 or 3. A few 1/2" oak dowels all the way through both pieces would help alignment and add a nice look.
Mark, they have a device that will allow you to remove stripped screws, I know Craftsman makes one, probably others as well. If the screw head is sticking out far enough, you may be able to tighten the chuck of your drill around the screw head, without a bit, and try to get it that way, works if you can get a grip on it. There is also the possibility that you have sheared the screw. If the fiinish has been applied, I think that will impact the strength of the glue. I could be wrong, but it is best to glue bare wood to bare wood. Keep after it, this is the best way to learn about woodworking, thru trial and error. I am with the others on the biscuit joints on the rails. You may be able to re enforce them with dowels, or pocket screws as mentioned above.
Regarding the biscuits, the plan called to use biscuits to join rails to the sides and to use biscuits to join the slats to the rails - so I'm assuming if I had done that then the bench would be pretty sound structurally (at least enough for my mother in law to sit on the change shoes or something). The plan is from Wood magazine. So my skipping that step now seems to have compromised the structure of the piece as well as given me new opportunities to learn about woodworking.
I have to admit I've never used a dowel before. This is my 4th project. Thanks for the help everyone - I'll follow up when I have news to report.
I think I would reinforce the rails with pocket screws. Move over on the slat supports about an inch,predrill and add new screws. Everything will be hidden and you won't be taking the chance of MIL having an accident. I wouldn't trust just the bisquits in this application.(I am talking the front and back rails not the side rails)
Just my $.02.
Personally I would skip buying an expesive tool to extract the screws and chalk that cleat off as a loss and take a chisel very carefully to the endgrain of the cleat and split it away from the screws. Then take a pliar to the scews and get them out that way. I would then make a new cleat the full length of the side rail maybe 1.1/4" short on either end and drill pilot holes. A full length cleat on that piece looks lik it shouldnt need more that four screws each. Its true screw are not really needed if you glue it well but I like redundantcy. That being said four screw for each full length cleat with a generous application of tight bond II or III and dont forget the pilot holes. Also dont use the old holes for the new screws. As far as the finish you have on it affecting the glue. sand the rail down to the bare wood under where the cleat will go and apply the glue. Nobody is gonna see under the cleat anyway.
It looks to me like you have room to rout a dado iin the side to set the cleat into. A 3/8th in dado would provide plenty of strength to hold the cleat. It looks like this is not the greatest plan though. My grand dad always preached to me that wood should support wood, not screws or nails or glue. It may be possible to add corbels to support the rails then this design would satisfy grandpa's sermon that wood should always support wood.
Glue your blocks on use a 23 Gauge Pin Nailer to hold the boards in place while the glue dries. The pins are so small that you dont wont have to anythkng with them.
Screws should be plenty strong to hold the cleats. Your problem is in installing the screws. Here's how I would do it. First, be sure to use Phillips head sheet metal screws, not wood screws. It will require two drill bits, a clearance drill a little bigger than the outside diameter of the screw and one about the same or a little larger than the root diameter of the threaded part of the screw. You can select the drill bits by eye. Hold the drill bit up with the screw behind it and sight across the bit. When you find the bit that occludes the entire screw (you can't see the threads at all), that's the clearance drill. Continue sighting smaller drill bits until you find the one that allows you to see nearly the whole thread on each side but not the solid central part of the threaded area. That's your pilot drill.
Again, this is how I would do it, and it might seem a little fussy, but you don't want to mess up at this point in your project. I would use two long cleats, one on each side, and four or five #8 or #10 screws in each. Mark your screw locations on each cleat, lightly center punch the locations with an awl, and use the drill press to drill holes with with the pilot drill. Clamp the cleat in its location and drill with the pilot drill bit into the rail of the bench using the predrilled hole in the cleat as a guide. Before drilling, put a piece of tape on the bit to show you where to stop drilling. You want to avoid drilling right through the rail, but you want the hole to be deep enough to accommodate the full length of the screw. Mark the cleat and bench to show where the cleat is installed (tape is good for this), and back at the drill press, drill out the holes in the cleat with the clearance drill bit. If you are using flat head screws, countersink for them now. Now we are ready to install the cleat.
Return the cleat to the rail. Prepare the screws by rubbing the threads with paraffin (candle wax or canning wax) to make them drive easier. Start the screws in the pilot holes with a screwdriver. This allows you to be sure that each screw is properly aligned with the hole. Run them home with a power screwdriver. If you like, you can apply some glue to the cleat before installing the screws. This is not necessary, but maybe you are a belt-and-suspenders person.
The bench looks great, and you are on the path to enjoy lots of productive woodworking!
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