Battle of the Brands: your top 3 woodworking power tool brands?

They have all sold me poorly designed tools! Throw away tools! Why don’t they use a switch that doesn’t fail after a few years? What happened to the quality. I would like to have a favorite…Please I would be loyal to a brand. They just seem to be getting cheaper with every new model. They now design for the market not the craft!!! ...and the salesmen just turn a profit!

-- http://www.woodsongsfurniture.com

Dennis, I couldn’t have put it any better then you did. I use to believe in a few of those names but nowadays it’s just a crapshoot, literally.

-- Better to say nothing and be thought the fool... then to speak and erase all doubt.

I couldn’t agree more.

I think whether they advertise it or not certain brands are better at certain types of tools and that even the “best” brands are selling tools that shouldn’t be on the market.

Are there brands you trust for certain types of tools?

G

-- Editor, www.ToolCrib.com

the response was a surprise. Since I’m all new to this I somehow had an image that the big names in powertools were “big” because of their power, well thought out designs, durability. Why did I think that they should be any different than the rest of our consuming-oriented society? My perception of woodworking carries a sense of honour to it. I guess I am a naive optimist …

-- ~ Debbie, Canada (http://www.execulink.com/~yohan)

Guess I’ll bite.
Hitachi 18v drill 90% Need better battery, tool is fine.
Hitachi Framing gun 100%. Shot over 70# of 3 1/2 in ring shanks so far, no problems.
PC 690 router 100% 6 yrs old, never checked up.
Milwaukee Have new circ saw. only used a little. Jury still out.

I’m not brand loyal.

Is this what your lookin’ for?

Jimmy

-- Jimmy

I have learned a couple of things recently. First, Craftman is not what it used to be in my Grandfather’s day. I purchased their 12” bandsaw because it rip over 6” inches thick only to find out that Sears doesn’t even sell replacement blades for it. You have to order them custom off the web.

HomeDepot won’t even honor their own website’s pricing.

I have had luck with both Porter-Cable and Dewalt. But by what I see in the Tool Reviews of various mags is that there is no longer a dominate tool company. Each has its good products and its average products.

-- Greg - Charles Town, WV

There are some items that have lasted and have earnd their sopt… Like the Skil Worm Drive Circular saw. I’ve never owned another brand and have oned 4 or 5 Skils.
Milwaukee Sawzall I’ve owned 3 all of them were sold during hard times, but never failed

Most of the searches done are from “Rookies” looking for a brand because they heard someone talk about them.

-- http://ye-olde-cabinet-shoppe.com/

I think that what has happened is name brands have become commoditized to the point where what used to be the bottom of the bunch made zillions selling cheap tools at Wal-Mart and the box stores and decided to fix their reputation by buying up the better brands who sell in relatively small bundles. Then they take the great brand… make it their upscale line… lower the quality to mass sell and put that in the box stores… It has made it so you cannot buy from a Quality manufacturer… it also makes it so if there was a well designed tool from any one of these guys that they are still making and marketing… you can get it very inexpensively. You just have to really do your homework. I like some tools from Delta, Bosch, Fein, Dewalt, Porter Cable, and Festool… But not all with the exception of Fein and Festool which seem to be outstanding in every product… Just ran into a rep from Fein… (He seemed a little stuck up) and I did meet a festool guy once who really rubbed me the wrong way. I saw a domino in action and it looks like a tool that may test my resolve to not buy from those guys due to this guys attitude. I just try to read all the reviews I can as I don’t trust magazines who always pick Bosch and Bosch seems to be their biggest advertiser.

Drew

-- Drew, Pleasant Grove, Utah

1. Porter-Cable
- Router, Drill, Jig Saw, air nailers
2. Bosch
- Rotary tools like routers and trim routers
3. Delta
- Saws

All of my Porter Cable tools are my most solidly built power tools. Their casings are tough and they perform very well. I like the quality and innovation of Bosch tools. And my Delta tools are also of good quality. I’ve never had a problem with any of them. I have a Delta Sliding Compound miter saw that they don’t sell anymore but works very well. I never buy DeWalt because my uncle is a contractor and his DeWalt tools have lasted as long as his Porter-Cable/Delta/Crafstmen tools but they are more expensive.

We as consumers are partly to blame for poor quality tools. We keep asking for more and better innovations at cheaper prices. It makes it a tough market for these manufacturers when their products are sitting next to another and the other tool is $50 less. High salaries are also to blame in a growing global economy. Especially when foreigners work at a far less wage than we do.

I can personally admit that I’ve purchased certain tools for $50 less even though they might not be the better quality tool. Obviously, simple things like switches and the like are inexcusable but you get my point.

-- There are three types of people in the world, those who can count and those who can't!

I love my Hawk scroll saw, and my Festool circular saw and I’ve gotten good use out of my PC 690 router. Milwaukee corded drill is a workhorse, and Bosch

My tool arsenal includes:
Milwaukee corded drill
Bosch random orbit sander
PC 690 router
Hawk scroll saw
Festool circular saw
several older (15-20 years) Black and Decker tools – router, palm sander, circular saw and jigsaw.
I also have a Panasonic cordless drill.

I love the Hawk scroll saw. It’s solid, easily adjusted and runs smoothly.
The Festool circular saw is well built, relatively quiet and precise another thumbs up.
The Milwaukee drill has lots of power, and is my go to drill. I particularly like the removable cord. I’ve had issues with cords at the point where they enter the tool and this eliminates the wear and tear at that point.
The random orbit sander and the router do their jobs well. I do have to get the directions out everytime I switch to the plunge base for the router, and I’m getting close to wanting a router with an easier method for bit changing, though.

I don’t use a drill enough to make a cordless drill worth it. The battery on the Panasonic died several years ago and I haven’t tracked down a replacement yet. The corded drill fills my needs.

I wouldn’t recommend the Black and Decker tools. They were a good place to start – I picked up a lot of them at a Factory store in Maine, but they don’t have the precision I’m looking for these days. I do use the circular saw and the jigsaw for home improvement type projects where precision isn’t important. One of the screw holes in the base of the router got stripped more than 10 years ago which is when I upgraded to the PC. I did actually use the palm sander today. It works and it fit in the small space I was working on. It’s the first time I’ve had it out in years, though.

-- Chelle http://artsgranddaughter.blogspot.com

It seems buying power tools these days is a crap shoot. Big box stores, foreign competition, throw away society, and uninformed consumers lead to lower and lower quality across the board.

Trying to avoid the false patriotism but my experience is that tools made in China tend to be lowest cost and lowest quality, tools made in the US, Western Europe, and Canada tend to be the highest cost and highest quality. Tools from countries in between seem to have quality that is somewhere in between.

It’s hard (I’d say impossible) to buy a quality tool from a big box store. Cost pressures from masses of uninformed weekend warriors, willing to accept junk as long as the price is low enough, rarely stressing the tool, and willing to throw it away when it does fail forces the high volume sellers to go offshore in search of the lowest cost products. The result is the lowest quality products.

Take Bosch for example. It appears they prototype and pilot produce in western europe and the US. Then after a bosch tool has been in the market for a year or two they move production to china. And the fit, finish, and quality suffer. This seems to be a consistent pattern with bosch. Pick up an older display model off the shelf at a big box, check the country of manufacture, then check the country of manufacture on the same tool new in the box on the shelf. If you can get an early Bosch product, say within the first couple years after introduction, you’ll probably get a quality product, after that, it’s hit or miss.

And yeah, I’ve heard the mantra, “it’s made in china but it’s held to ‘company x’s’ quality standards”. I’ve worked for multiple companies that produce in china. It is harder, much harder, to get a quality product out of chinese factories. It’s not that chinese factories cant produce quality, it’s more about companies going to china to get the absolute lowest cost and as a result they force the quality out of the product.

But despite all that I’ll throw out my opinions:

Tools made in China tend to be lower cost and lower quality.
Tools made in the US and western Europe tend to be higher cost and higher quality.

Specific power tool brands I’ve had pretty good luck with:
Bosch, Milwaukee, Skil worm drive circular saws, most things porter cable, Dewalt cordless drills, older crafstman, older delta, most things powermatic

Things I’ve had mixed results on:
most everything else Dewalt, I like their miter saws, but dont much like their bench top planers. I’ve played with their biscuit joiner, it seems ok. I have a friend that swears by Makita. They seem ok but I’ve not used them enough to form a valid opinion. Ryobi table saws, I owned one for years and turned out some pretty reasonable results with it. Looking back it had a lot of deficiencies but I got a lot of good work out of it.

Things I’ve had poor luck with:
Anything Black and Decker. Anything new Craftsman. Rigid is a crap shoot, might work, might not. Anything Grizzly. Grizzly is a great company to work with, they respond quickly to questions and quality issues, they have low prices, but…. pretty much everything I’ve ever purchased Grizzly has been low quality, low cost, but low quality. Anything Ryobi in a powered hand tool. I’ve owned a few and I’ve never been very impressed. Rikon, I’ve only used one of their tools, a 6 inch stationary jointer, and it was a piece of junk.

I recently bought a Triton 3 1/2 hp router. I’m very pleased with it. It’s well designed , & it very well constructed. The price wasn’t too bad either. I think this brand should added to the list.
The company has some other tools that also look pretty good. Triton Catalogue.

-- -** You are never to old to set another goal or to dream a new dream ****************** Dick, & Barb Cain, Hibbing, MN. http://www.woodcarvingillustrated.com/gallery/member.php?uid=3627&protype=1

I whole-heartedly agree with the post above which mentions that we as consumers have done much of this to ourselves. The modern consumer has the mindset that cheaper is better, always. So if a consumer has the option of buying a Starrett combination square set (which would cost well over $200.00), then he’d rather buy a cheaper, foreign piece of junk for $25.00. He would possibly even know that it is a piece of junk, but looking at the considerable price difference, thinks, “Well, I could buy almost 10 of these junkers for the price of that one.”

Meanwhile, the company which makes the high-end tool has to shut its doors because not enough people are buying their tools anymore. Then, all the consumer would have left would be mediocre quality (or, in many cases, throw-away junk.) The consumer wouldn’t even have the option of buying a quality tool, even if he wanted to. So the collective mind of the consumer has forgotten what it is to have a quality tool in his hand and settles for junk, thinking that it is all the better we can produce, or that it is quality.

We have created a downward spiral trend – one that I don’t see getting better in the near future. As a consumer, I make it my practice to buy quality tools – meaning, of course, that they are more expensive – but buying tools only once. That means also that as a buyer, I have to practice patience and reserve… if I really want a new tool, I surely don’t have the luxury of just going out and getting it. I have to save for it. I have to wait for it. I have to not buy certain things in order to get what is going to last. Then I buy a quality tool that will last – and I get to support the company that is still willing to innovate new tools (instead of just copying) and produce a high-quality tool. “Buy well and buy once.”

Okay… dismounting from soapbox.

-- † Hops †

oh, you mean you have to work TOWARDS something? that you have to WAIT? that’s it’s not about replacing the old gadget with the new gadget every six months?? it’s not about buying a product and downloading the updates as soon as you get it out of the box? it’s not about quality vs quantity?

I really liked your soapbox speech. It is interesting how we, the consumers, can get caught in the trap and lose sight, so easily, of what matters.

Thank you. You can get on that soapbox anytime!

-- ~ Debbie, Canada (http://www.execulink.com/~yohan)

Over my many years of woodworking, I’ve bought many low quality tools, & have replaced them with more low priced, low quality tools. It’s not because I’m a cheapskate, it’s all that I was able to afford at the time.

Nowadays when I need to replace a tool, I’ve been buying the best, since now I can afford the higher quality equipment.
If I had waited until I could afford some of the tools I bought, I may not have built a lot of the things I’ve made over the years.

-- -** You are never to old to set another goal or to dream a new dream ****************** Dick, & Barb Cain, Hibbing, MN. http://www.woodcarvingillustrated.com/gallery/member.php?uid=3627&protype=1

I think the bottom line here is that if you’re interested in getting into woodworking that you have to consider what is best for you.

I am like Dick in that I bought less expensive equipment to start out because a) it’s all I could afford and b) to not spend a lot of money until I was sure my interest in woodworking was not a passing fancy. Since my interest has now turned into somewhat of a passion I now try to buy only the better quality, though more expensive, tools.

Again bottom line, if you love woodworking, buy what you can and go make some sawdust!

-- Better to say nothing and be thought the fool... then to speak and erase all doubt.

Dick,

I agree with what you’re saying. A lot of my early tools were low end tools and I cranked out a lot of ok stuff. At the time it was a combination of money and ignorance. I didn’t have much money and I didn’t know much about good and bad tools. And I still muddled through.

Could I have done better, produced better quality, with an “oh so much better” (and likely more expensive) tool? Probably not. I was limited as much, or more so, by my lack of knowledge and experience as by any tool.

But things are different now. I’ve been doing this a while, I know a bit more about what works and doesn’t work, and I have enough money to afford higher end tools.

The question was, what do I think about the quality of different tool brands, not, what would I recommend to a starving young buck (or doe) just trying to get a few things put together without mortgaging the house for tools. BTW, that would another interesting thread, what if money was a constraint, what low end tools are “good enough” to get a little work done.

More detail on some of my opinions, and of course, all of my opinions are just that, opinions. But my opinions are all based on my direct experience with these tools. All of these below are tools I have owned and used or are tools I own now.

Grizzly 1023 right tilt cabinet saw. This was my third table saw so I was not new to table saws when I got this one. It took a LOT of tuning to get this saw to where I would call it reasonable. One good thing was the table was freakishly flat, everywhere, even the extensions. The down side was I had to shim the hell out of it to get it to square with the blade, I had to use a die grinder to grind out the trunnion castings to get the blade to achieve full travel elevation and tilt. The fence never would travel smoothly, unless I loosened it enough that it wouldn’t lock square, pick one or the other. Untapped supposedly threaded holes, and an uncountable number of other issues. Grizzly customer service was great, but this saw did not leave me with an impression of quality.

Powermatic PM2000. I like this saw a lot. But even at $2k+ there are multiple fit and finish issues. The saw came true and square right out of the box. No adjustment required for blade alignment. But one extension wing was significantly more out of flat than the table or other wing. That same wing has a welded casting void. The plastic motor cover doesn’t fit well. The tilt required resetting, fortunately there was enough travel without having to grind out the trunnions :).

PM 54A 6 inch jointer. Flat and true. I really like this jointer. All of the cast iron is great BUT the cutter head shaft and motor shaft could not be made co-planar without sheet metal tweaks.

PM 14 inch bandsaw. No problems noted. Table flat and true, works as advertised.

Black and Decker plunge router, not impressed. Too much plastic, too heavy for the horsepower, uncomfortable handles, cheesy stamped metal parts.

Craftsman fixed base router. Lower end router, actually not bad, I could recommend it as an ok low end.

Bosch router, probably has the best ergonomics of any router I’ve picked up. I really like the feel and handling of this router. It’s a good router but guess what, the on off switch isn’t sealed. If you use this router in a router table configuration the switch fills up with dust and eventually wont turn on or off. So depending on how much you use it every so often you have to open up the router, pull out the switch, open up the switch and clean all of the wood dust out of it. And this is on what is a relatively high end router.

Two Porter Cable routers, an older one and a brand new, both 690 series. I like both of these router a lot. Both seem pretty substantial. I’ve never had any problems with them. Not the same sweetness as using the Bosch but I probably use them more.

And an endless list of other tools good and bad…. I’ll spout off opinions on those some other day :D.

For a lot of people the cheap tool will last them forever if they’re only occasional users, & not serious woodworkers.

-- -** You are never to old to set another goal or to dream a new dream ****************** Dick, & Barb Cain, Hibbing, MN. http://www.woodcarvingillustrated.com/gallery/member.php?uid=3627&protype=1

Dick,

In terms of durability, I’d probably agree with you. Many of the lower cost tools will likely last a lifetime with occasional use.

In terms of capability I’d have to disagree. I used to have a Ryobi BT3000 table saw. It was my first table saw and I used the heck out of it. I made a bunch of stuff I was pretty proud of. The problem was that eventually I out grew the saw. The saw was still a fine saw, pretty much as good as the day I bought it, but what I learned over time was that “as good as the day I bought it” was good but not particularly great. When I was happy to make a cut that was reasonably straight and mostly square, in 4/4 or thinner lumber, mostly picked up from a local big box and wasn’t doing anything that necessarily benefited from straight, square, and true, then I was fine with that saw. It worked for me for years.

What I eventually learned was that life is easier when cuts are cleaner, corners are accurate, and boards are square. This is where the Ryobi fell down for me. I was continually messing with it trying to get consistent accurate cuts.

I found I could produce finer quality work easier with higher quality tools. The emphasis is probably on the easier. I know there are those who eschew all power tools and produce fantastic work. I’m not that interested / dedicated / good enough to do that. For me a better tool eventually helped me produce better work.

At some point I sold the Ryobi saw, in good conscience, to the next fellow who was looking to get started without breaking the bank. It worked well for me at that stage of my interest; hopefully it will work as well for him.

My third table saw, the grizzly, once I put in enough hours to get it tuned it turned out to be a pretty good saw. But I was still dissatisfied with the “quality” of the saw. It shouldn’t have been that much pain out of the box.

Now I have a powermatic. It required almost no tuning out of the box. It came from the manufacturer almost perfect. Is it better than the tuned up grizzly, in terms of actual utility? Probably not (although I usually tell myself it’s better since I paid so dang much money for it). The powermatic mostly exceeds my expectations; therefore it gets a thumbs up for quality.

Many of my other tools have not exceeded, or even met, my expectations, those get a thumbs down. It seems that quality is in the eye of the user. What might be a perfectly fine “high” quality tool for one user’s needs might be too light duty, or “junk” to another user.

I have the following:

DeWalt
Biscuit Jointer, corded drill, jigsaw, random orbit sander

Porter Cable
690 router, 890 router, finish nailer

Delta
Tablesaw, jointer, planer, drill press, mortising jig
I am disappointed with the drill press. I bought a variable speed drill press and had to return it 2 times since the pulley retaining clips were manufactured very poorly. Rockler replaced the drill press each time with no questions. Maybe third time is the charm.

Jet
14” bandsaw

Ryobi
Oscillating spindle sander

Rigid
12” miter/chop saw

Years ago when I was doing automotive work all my tools were Craftsman. Great tools. I bought a Craftsman pad sander several years ago and within a year the switch went out so now it is always “On”.

When I am in the market to purchase a tool, I take my time and do the research. Look at the ratings and then shop the Internet for price. Price is important and also how much it will cost for shipping. If the overall price is lower than I can purchase it locally I will shop the Internet. No problems yet.

-- Fred Childs, Pasadena, CA - - - Law of the Workshop: Any tool, when dropped, will roll to the least accessible corner.

There comes a time in your woodworking journey when you discover the benefit of quality. I started out whith what ever tool I could afford, never looking at brand names only the price. There is nothing more aggrivating than trying to put your ideas into reality only to discover that the $100 table saw will not cut a perfect 45 no mater how many times you adjust it, or that $25(yes $25) router keeps burning up every piece of wood it touches.

Enter the world of increased funds and learned mistakes. My Delta table saw sings a symphony every time it slices through a board. Even then you have to pay the money for a good blade(cheap blades = flying teeth). My Dewalt router hums through dovetails with effortless ease, but with a better, and pricer bit. My trials have taught me that with enough money quality is usually around the corner.

I still take the time to research products, not companies, to determine what will be best for me. That may not be the best for everyone, but we are not all creating the same things nor do we all think along the same lines. I think that it takes a few broken tools to discover that you get what you pay for.

My meager collection of tools, be it top of the line or bottom of the barrel, is just that, mine.

oh yeah

#1 Delta #2 Dewalt #3 Porter Cable

-- What would Marc do?

I’ll preface this with saying that I have very limited experience with multiple brands. I’ve only owned 2 tablesaws and 2 different routers for instance. My first tablesaw was the cheapest thing on the shelf at Lowes and I’ll say no more about it. I bought a Grizzly 1023 and have had no issues in performance. It took a little tuning, but it had stayed true since. I use it maybe an hour a week, so maybe it isn’t production quality. I couldn’t say. I have a Dewalt 618 router that I have no complaints about. I haven’t used a very large bit in it however. My bandsaw sucks. Another stupid bottom shelf Lowe’s purchase. I plan to purchase a better one with my next big purchase. Suggestions?

-- Jeff, South Carolina

I have pondered this question all day now. Finally the post. I’m glad we all go for quality VS quantity. My first new car was a ‘74 Datsun B-210. It was a great car I was young and it served me well. Five new cars later I drive a ‘02 GMC Denali pickup. Features on this truck, you can’t find on any truck made anymore. The point I’m trying to make here is, IMHO we buy to our ability and bank account, then strive to perfection. I can only hope that reps from tool mfgs. will see these posts, and bring the feedback back to the boardroom

As to the question of the topic:
Porter Cable – sanders, air guns, drills, biscuit jointer
Bosch – sliding compound miter, jigsaw, hammerdrill
Delta – jointer, planer, drillpress, vaccuum
Craftsman – table, radial arm saw
Jet – bandsaw

My favorite is the Bosch miter, most used PC- 14.4 drill, most brand name PC.

this reminds me of my many other hobbies. Fly fishing, bowling, music/guitar, backpack/hiking – every group has this same discussion. I had a lengthy response in mind, discussing the dangers of turning woodworking into an elitest hobby by insisting the only good tools are the name brand, high end ones. I’ve seen it happen with fly fishing and guitars, and seen the death of many businesses from the fallout as a result. Alas, I’ll spare you the full brunt of my rant…

Although my career is professional, I’ll throw the blue collar, “big box” brand of Ridgid in the mix. Their 14” bandsaw, 13” planer, 6” jointer, 10” contractor table saw, osc spindle/edge belt sander, and 5” ROS all made Fine Woodworking’s best value list in their reviews. To many of us, Home Depot and Lowes are the only stores availible other than online and value is paramount to many hobbists.

that’s it. Any more and I’ll be getting too controversial…

-- ...straight lines or tight lines, either will make me happy! Muddler

it’s almost Flyfishing season again. (Muddler, as in Muddler Minnow??)
I’ll add photography to your list as well.
It all boils down to: what do you want to do and what can you afford? For me, I’m playing. I don’t need fancy, precision… I need to be able to do the job and be safe while I’m doing it. And underneath that it is all about skill and patience. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. A free camera from a cereal box can create as artistic photographs as a $10,000 camera—it all depends on the artist at the other end of the tool.

-- ~ Debbie, Canada (http://www.execulink.com/~yohan)

...when my $30.00 router bit bearing broke while working on a $500.00 counter top with the homeowner watching and cut in to their brand new counter I was a bit upset. The cereal box I got if from was called HomeDepot and it wasn’t cheap. That was a year for bad bearings I had them fail in different brands. My guess is China sold everyone bad bearings so they just passed them on to us. I do not mind cheap. In some cases it is best…but I’m sick of getting bad designs and having faulty products passed on to us consumers.

-- http://www.woodsongsfurniture.com

hmm, I think I have to disagree to some degree with MsDebbieP.

I agree that a talented artist, engineer, backhoe operator, etc will often be able to produce good results, even with limited tools. I also agree that someone more proficient is likely to produce better results than someone less proficient using the same tools.

What I don’t agree with is the idea that the tools don’t matter, that it’s just the operator. Some simplistic examples include:

Using a backhoe instead of a hand shovel, there’s no question the backhoe can do more faster than a man wielding a shovel.

In photography can the cereal box camera do high speed low light fast action controlled depth of field zoom photography? I doubt it. I also doubt that any amount of skill by the photographer is going to get the cereal box camera to take clear telephoto shots. A cheap lens is likely to be a poor lens and is likely to take out of focus or chromatically aberrated pictures. No matter the skill of the photographer.

For woodworking tools lets just take bearings or shaft runout for example. The effect of shaft runout and bad bearings is cutter (blade) wobble which pretty much directly transfers to quality of cut. I don’t care how great of a wood worker you are, if your blade or bit wobbles you will end up with poor quality cuts. I suppose the great woodworker could then use his lie-nelson plane to smooth it out, OH, I forgot, he doesn’t have a lie-nelson plane (didn’t come in his cereal box) so he’ll just have to rub it smooth with a rock :). The assumption here is that lower quality tools suffer more of these real deficiencies than higher quality tools.

My opinion (and experience) is that tools DO have an effect on the quality of work produced. The same artist using high quality tools will produce higher quality work, and produce it quicker with less effort, than when using poor quality tools.

oh I didn’t say that the tools don’t have an effect but it’s the person behind the tool that knows how to use the tool, knows the difference between quality work and mediocre, knows how to achieve what he/she wants to achieve. They figure out how to work around the limitations and/or create wonders with what they have. So with my cereal box camera I’m going to focus on what it CAN do and I’m going to be creative to stretch the abilities to create something unique within the limits of the equipment (no macro and no telephoto lens and no DOF adjustments….) The cereal box camera will also probably let light in and so I will either eliminate that problem some how or I will use the exposure to my benefit within my creativity. (Just like so many of our LumberJocks use an “oops” to add a creative and successful detail to their woodworking projects).

the “quicker and less effort” method is great but it doesn’t take away from the talent that is within the individual and it doesn’t MAKE the talent. So as you don’t NEED amazing tools to create, it also doesn’t mean that getting them won’t make a difference on your work. But if you wait around for the time when you have the great tools, then you are robbing yourself (and the viewers) of your talents.

So what does this boil down to? What do you want to do and how do you want to do it? Knowing this will guide you to the tools to achieve your goals. And some people will have access to bigger and better tools and some people won’t. But I bet that if the desire is there, both will reach their goals and achieve beauty.

And so, you are right, tools do make a huge difference, taking an artist’s skill to another level—depending on the artist’s skills and talents.

-- ~ Debbie, Canada (http://www.execulink.com/~yohan)

good call on the moniker, Ms.Debbie – and it’s already trout season here in central NY!

granted the thread was about your favorite brands, but you can’t post something like this without expecting more than brand opinion, so I’ll throw a few more cents into the ring.

I’ve got a fly fishing story I’d like to bore you with. I fished all my life but had decided to advance to fly fishing about 20 years ago. when I first got into it, I spent many afternoons at a local fly shop learning as much as I could from the owners and coveting their high end orvis and sage fly rods. Being of meager means at that time, I could only afford a cheap outfit from a local tackle shop and waded in shorts and sneakers because I couldn’t afford a pair of waders. Those shop owners were great, but they would romance me with stories about the fabled waters in the catskills (2 hours away) and how you really had to know what you were doing to even attempt to catch those challenging fish. It was said that if I casted poorly and spooked the fish that the other guys in on the river would get angry, etc. As a result, I never felt worthy of those rivers until I met a friend who took me there about 8 years ago. up until recently have I upgraded my gear to slightly better than what I had years ago, and yet find myself outfishing the “orvis comandos” who think $2000 in gear is going to compensate for poor technique. Ironically, the flyshop I used to visit is out of business now. there was a huge boom of fly fishers after the movie “a river runs through it” and over 1/2 dozen fly shops sprouted up in my area – all selling high end gear and trying to ride the popularity wave. now, only one is left, and is forced to lower prices and carry more moderately priced gear to stay afloat.

Now, I’ve been attracted to woodworking since grade school age spending summer days with my grandfather in his little shop. However, it wasn’t until a couple of years ago that I actually have the space and the means to put together a small woodworking shop. So here I am, listening to all of you and trying to ride the boom of woodworking popularity with the other newbies. But it seems that if I want to attempt some fine woodworking projects, I will be wasting my time if I mistakenly bought the Ridgid planer rather than the double priced dewalt. Or – God forbid – I will have to change my battery in my ryobi drill sooner than if I had a porter cable one. The average newbie hobbist doesn’t want to waste his/her money either, but can’t justify the powermatic pricetag. So now what to do – do you wait 3 to 5 years to save enough to get the “right” tools, or make more budget minded decisions and get started sooner to see if you even like to do it? I don’t mean running out to Harbor Freight to get the cheapest router you can find, but a Hitachi router kit is $50 less than the bosch or the PC - and you could buy a starter set of bits from MLCS or the like with that $50 you saved. Does that mean that I will never be able to make fine furniture because I have a hitachi router instead of the bosch? According to the “pros” opinions that I’ve read, nothing compares to good technique. Granted, your tools should perform properly, but I’ve never heard them saying you need to have a particular brand to be able to make the joinery that are writing about. Kind of how some tout the superiority of parallel clamps and yet I’ve never seen David Marks use one. I guess his frame and panel doors won’t hold together well because he wasn’t using Bessey K-bodies?

I guess my message is that quality does not necessarily mean name brand, price tag, or anti-BORG. I’m finding out that cautiously wading the reviews and shopping around a bit will get you servicable, accurate tools that allow me to start woodworking without buyer’s remorse in a couple of years. So frankly, you’re starting to sound like those elitest fly fishers who no longer have a business. If you keep alienating new woodworkers by making this hobby less accessable with the name brand crusade, the woodworking popularity wave will die off and, if the elitests don’t watch out, so will the woodcraft and rockler stores (and the like), leaving you with only home depot to shop at.

-- ...straight lines or tight lines, either will make me happy! Muddler

MsDebbieP, well said, what you say makes sense

good tools do make life easier (and the Orvis really does give a better “feel” during flyfishing. Rick owns the $2000 baby and I have the $250 “kit”.) but just be careful of the “if only I had” syndrome!.

I have to remind myself of this all the time with my beginning journey into woodworking, not that I’m thinking that I need the bigger and better tools, but because of the suggestions by fellow LumberJocks: (for example: “put down the dremel, Debbie, and pick up a chisel… learn to feel the grain of the wood.” I think, from my lessons here at LJ, that all I really need is a sharp chisel and plane to start building.

And at the same time, as Coloradoclimber points out, you need to have tools that are taken care of, that are safe, and that are going to be able to do the job. What those tools are, well, that’s a question only you can answer! Your goals, your skills, your bank account!

Thanks Coloradoclimber and Muddler for the discussion. It really helps me to stay focused on “creating”.

-- ~ Debbie, Canada (http://www.execulink.com/~yohan)

I am a Newbie woodworker and what what I have learned from you guys over reading different forums is that in getting started I am buying used. The best quality I can at a reasonable price. Like in stead of buying a 6 inch jointer new for 5-600.00 I bought a used Grizzly 8 inch for 425.00. That seems to work for me. I have been able to buy the larger things less expensively instead of buying something I will replace to get a bigger one later.
Barry
from Pa.

-- Barry, Pennsylvania,

A fool with a tool is still a fool.

-- We must guard our enthusiasm as we would our life - James Krenov

I know this may sound extreme but when terms like elitist, fool, “pro”, and references to David Marks start getting thrown around the conversation has already degenerated. If you really believe all you need is the sharpened lid of a tuna fish can to do all your joinery and an old brick to do your finish sanding then good for you.

My experience (from which I base my opinions) is that if I hobble my crew, or myself, with low quality tools I can expect a job to take longer and that the finished product will be of lower quality. Perhaps if I or my crew were all as talented as [insert revered hero here] I could cut my tool budget down to one roll of chisels and an old saw to share between us. But since we’re mere mortals we tend to benefit by not having to fight our tools while trying to work hard and produce something of value.

If you read my earlier posts you’ll note that I said I began my wood working journey using less expensive, lower end tools. I recognize now that the best quality tools in the world would have been unlikely to help me produce better work. My skills as a craftsman limited me, not any tool, hand or power. I outfitted my meager shop at the time with inexpensive, often used, tools. I used these old tools for years and turned out quite a few things I was, and still am, proud of. Furniture still in use today.

I also alluded to the following: Does a powermatic table saw costing roughly 2 to 2.5 ($2200 to $2800) times the cost of a well tuned grizzly ($900 to $1200) add 2 to 2.5 times the value to your ability to produce fine work, probably not (although it pains me to say it :D). But, does a well tuned grizzly which costs 3 times as much as a ryobi (~$400) provide 3 times the value and utility over the ryobi? I say, absolutely yes. Note that these two saws are in a completely different class so it’s not really a fair comparison at all. The grizzly and the powermatic are more apples to apples, a fairer comparison.

I dont own a hitachi router so I cant comment on the quality of it compared to the bosch. If the hitachi provides ample utility then it sounds like the lower cost tool which satisfies the requirements is the way to go. For me, where I am now, is it worth 3 to 4 times the price to own a bosch over a black and decker? yep, sure is.

But hey, I also use parallel jawed clamps so you already know my stripe.

one of things that I’ve learned through my life as a consumer is: if you are going to buy, buy well! And “well” depends on the purpose that it will be used for, availability, and financial limitations.

-- ~ Debbie, Canada (http://www.execulink.com/~yohan)

I’m curious . . . I subscribe to several of the mainstream WW magazines and I see a trend with Grizzly products. The are rarely the top choice based on performance. They are consistently the best value choice. Having never used a Powermatic for example, I don’t know the potential difference. Enough of the reviews indicate that Powermatic sets the mark, so I have to lean towards it being true. I also have to lean towards Grizzly products as being close clones to the big dogs. Is a Grizzly table saw as good as a top of the line Powermatic or Delta? Probably not. Will the average hobbyist know the difference? Doubt it.

-- Jeff, South Carolina

thank you, coloradoclimber, for illustrating my point…

-- ...straight lines or tight lines, either will make me happy! Muddler

I agree with the “buy the best you, or keep saving” mantra. I’ve bought junk and replaced pretty quickly. One case for getting the cheap stuff is that it is educational. If you never used a bandsaw, the cheap one might show you the features that you really want. Knowing what you want and which features are virtually useless, will make your big purchase easier and fit to your style.

-- Jeff, South Carolina

Although, it would probably be cheaper to take a shop class than buying a cheap tool if you can find one locally and get to know the machines that way.

I’m a craigslist fan if you are in an area that has enough traffic to see a lot of tools. There can be some good deals if you know what your looking for and you see it close to when it is listed. I picked up a 4 year old SJÖBERGS workbench for my mother in law this weekend off of Craiglist.

Which if your thinking of tools, a good workbench is a must have.

-- We must guard our enthusiasm as we would our life - James Krenov

Yeah Wayne, Craigslist is a great place to look for tools and lumber. It has not caught on as much in my area, but there are a ton of postings in Charlotte, NC which is about 30 minutes from me. My brother in law and me scored big on lumber from a posting there. A guy in Charleston bought some land and demolished all the existing structures. There was 1000’s of BD of pine and oak. There was enen a little cherry. He only charged $100 a truck load! We found a guy with a mini saw mill that sold cedar at $1.00 BD and green Walnut @ $2 BF.

-- Jeff, South Carolina