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difficult glue up problem

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Forum topic by BobD posted 08-25-2011 05:43 AM 1301 views 0 times favorited 12 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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BobD

52 posts in 2064 days


08-25-2011 05:43 AM

Help needed with a difficult glue up. I’m in the process of making wall vents out of white oak. I have made these vents years ago, but apparently have lost the directions or plans. The documentation explains how to do the glue up. Picture one shows the completed vent but I can’t remember how to do the glue up.

The rails and stiles of the vnet were made using a ogee rail and stile combination router bit. Photo 2 shows the unglued pieces and how they fit together. My primary concern is how to complete the gule up of the various pieces.

What is the best way to glue the pieces together? I think I should stain and finish the pieces before glui ng the assemble together, but my concern is that stain and finish will not allow the glue to set. Staining the assembly after glue up also does not seem to be the best way to go either.

Suggestions welcome for glue up and/or staining recommendations.

-- Bob, San Diego


12 replies so far

View fussy's profile

fussy

980 posts in 1702 days


#1 posted 08-25-2011 08:05 AM

Bob,

That could be a booger, but all you need do is be patient. To that end, I’d do two things first; build a simple squaring jig—two sided or three sided, whatever you feel comfortable with, and choose a glue with a long open time that you like to use. I think, in this case, I’d use LIQUID (caps for emphasis) hide glue. Either Old Brown Glue, or Titebond Liquid Hide. And I think I’d use Old Brown because it exhibits initial tack like brewed glue, just not as strong. Joint strenth is as strong as any glue in common use, but anything would be adequate for this. Use the jig to start and stay square, start at one side and work across carefully. If you seat the pieces carefully, you can clamp with tape. Work section by section.

The advantages of liquid hide glue; long open time, water clean up, and squeeze-out doesn’t seem to affect stain or finishing, and if you goof, IT’S REVERSIBLE with heat. I’d glue first. Nice work! Hope this helps.

Steve
PS Go to popwood and look for the article they did on liquid hide glues. They’re different from pot-brewed hide, and you can do it yourself, but I’d just buy it.

-- Steve in KY. 44 years so far with my lovely bride. Think I'll keep her.

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cloakie1

204 posts in 1206 days


#2 posted 08-25-2011 11:04 AM

as fussy said build a jig….i would use a 2 sided one….i would also cut spacers to go between all your vent rails to get a nice even spaces. start with the middle section first and then work towards the outside and then finally put the rails on.with all the spacer blocks in you should only require 3 cramps to hold it all together….just make sure your spacers are all aligned to ensure that it all cramps evenly.not sure what glues you guys use up in the nothern hemisphere but something with a long open time wil help.again like fussy said just take your time and it will go together no worries at all…good luck

-- just get stuck in and have a go!!!

View Tim Kindrick's profile

Tim Kindrick

369 posts in 1206 days


#3 posted 08-26-2011 01:39 AM

In my opinion, if you use spacers between all the vents and the dividers, you should only have to glue the two end pieces. It shouldn’t be subjected to “racking” or any other stresses if it’s screwed into place. Good Luck!!!

-- I have metal in my neck but wood in my blood!!

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jeth

210 posts in 1489 days


#4 posted 08-26-2011 04:57 AM

Agree with Tim, though glue wouldn’t hurt. You could make some small blocks with saw kerfs in them to mate into the negative spaces. I’m guessing you are doing a few of these so it would worth a jig to make each glue up straight forward. With a bit of thought the the spacer blocks could be sized to provide a reference for the clamping of the outer frame.

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fussy

980 posts in 1702 days


#5 posted 08-26-2011 07:19 AM

Bob and anyone out there with more experience than me (which is probably all of you), a thought crossed my mind; given that hot-melt glue is ALMOST as astrong as most glues and is certainly strong enough for most jigs, what would be wrong with using it in this application? It’s not as if they are going to be subjected to massive stress. Thoughts?

Steve

-- Steve in KY. 44 years so far with my lovely bride. Think I'll keep her.

View Tim Kindrick's profile

Tim Kindrick

369 posts in 1206 days


#6 posted 08-26-2011 06:51 PM

fussy… I’m not sure that hot-melt glue would be a good idea with this project because it may be a vent for the heater as well as the a/c….. If so, the hot air might weaken the hot-melt glue over time.

-- I have metal in my neck but wood in my blood!!

View Tennessee's profile

Tennessee

1447 posts in 1166 days


#7 posted 08-26-2011 07:03 PM

If this is a vent, then I am assuming air will flow. So the wood will probably either gain in size or shrink, depending on the humidity or the season.
Just gluing the border and letting the other pieces lock in by joint only may cause a rattling vent months down the road.
Glue the center section up first, treat it like a vertical when you put the rest together, and I’d glue up everything, with a good, slow glue, and some kind of squaring jig.

-- Paul, Tennessee, http://www.tsunamiguitars.com

View dbray45's profile

dbray45

2498 posts in 1428 days


#8 posted 08-26-2011 07:05 PM

Wipe off excess glue with wet towel as you go. I would use Titebond III. To keep things in place, I would be inclined to use a pin nailer.

-- David in Damascus, MD

View fussy's profile

fussy

980 posts in 1702 days


#9 posted 08-27-2011 03:56 AM

Tim,

I don’t know. Hot melt has to be HOT. I’ve burned myself on my wife’s little one, and I doubt a hot air register will get that hot as the thermal limiter on the furnace would shut it down. Granted it will dry a little from exposure to hot air, but white oak is pretty stable. They’ve made oak vent covers for more than one hundred years, and back in the day I think they used hide which is reversible with heat, but once again more heat than a register will provide. When did they change to PVA or whatever they used later?

Steve

-- Steve in KY. 44 years so far with my lovely bride. Think I'll keep her.

View Tim Kindrick's profile

Tim Kindrick

369 posts in 1206 days


#10 posted 08-27-2011 04:10 AM

Steve, you’re probably right. They do make some really good hot-glues today.

-- I have metal in my neck but wood in my blood!!

View BobD's profile

BobD

52 posts in 2064 days


#11 posted 08-27-2011 04:16 PM

Thanks for the suggestions and tips. The first picture is the final glued up wall vent. As suggested, I made two sided jig to help me keep it square during glue up. Chasing all the little pieces around during glue up without a jig would have made a great Laurel & Hardy movie!!! My procedure was first to stain all the pieces before applying glue, Secondly, dry fitted everything in the jig and marked the location of each vertical slat on blue tap applied to the face of the rails, Third, removed the bottom rail, Fourth, applied Titebond III using a small brush on both ends of the vertical pieces, Fifth,, working very fast I inserted the vertical pieces into the top rail and then, with a little bit of trouble, inserted the bottom rail into the bottom of the vertical pieces. As someone suggested, PATIENCE, is a requirement for this type of glue up, but I think I was successful.
The second picture is the final product after rounding the edges and drilling the mounting holes. Routing and sanding the edges required more stain to cover the bare wood, but that was fairly easy.

My major concern was whether the glue would bond over the stain. Looks like it did!!!

Thanks for the tips and thought you all would like to see the final product.

-- Bob, San Diego

View Tim Kindrick's profile

Tim Kindrick

369 posts in 1206 days


#12 posted 08-27-2011 07:23 PM

Good job!!! I’m glad it all worked out for you!!! Thanks for letting us know about the outcome!!!

-- I have metal in my neck but wood in my blood!!

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