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Forum topic by jeffl posted 07-28-2011 12:24 PM 2486 views 0 times favorited 106 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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jeffl

288 posts in 2772 days


07-28-2011 12:24 PM

Topic tags/keywords: question

I’m not really complaining, I know people need to earn a living but I’ve noticed this,”
I’ve met many blacksmiths through a friend and they always say” grab a piece of steel and we’ll make something ” always free. Every woodworker who has built one handplane becomes an authority and wants $125. A day to stand in their shop and answer questions. More if you want hands on plus materials.

-- Jeff,


106 replies so far

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Bertha

13003 posts in 2155 days


#1 posted 07-28-2011 02:13 PM

As a doctor, I support being paid for advice;)

I have to support it. I have student loans, after all;)

-- My dad and I built a 65 chev pick up.I killed trannys in that thing for some reason-Hog

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Schwieb

1797 posts in 2923 days


#2 posted 07-28-2011 02:29 PM

I agree with Al (Bertha). Time is the most valuable thing we have. When an individual has invested time and probably money into learning a skill, he/she deserves to be compensated for sharing that knowledge. That said I donate lots of time to teaching, particularly youngsters the basics of woodworking. I consider it an investment in the future. $125 a day with a talented woodworker is a pretty good deal to me. In my world, $500 a day or more with an expert in a small classroom setting to learn a new skill in my profession is very normal. It takes time to learn the skill and then to prepare the information to teach it.

-- Dr. Ken, Florida - Durch harte arbeit werden Träume wahr.

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HorizontalMike

7143 posts in 2376 days


#3 posted 07-28-2011 03:00 PM

Dr. Al and Dr. Ken, then why are we NOT paying our public school teachers $500/day? And they even have to have 30-35 kids PER classroom (or 150-180 students/day). It is funny how our (as a former teacher and administrator) students forget their educational roots and think that THEY are worthy of more than the teachers who originally taught them. Public school is where you first learned HOW to think and HOW to learn. With THAT skill you were then able to learn WHAT skills you need in life.

I can just hear that truck with the flat tire barreling down the road at me, ”But, but, but, but, but,...”

Dr. Mike (PhD type)

-- HorizontalMike -- "Woodpeckers understand..."

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jeffl

288 posts in 2772 days


#4 posted 07-28-2011 04:36 PM

Jim I think your right about making sawdust I’ve gotten some of the same advice from some of the best craftsmen I’m my opinion.
Bertha and Schwieb I don’t mind paying to learn and just observe and possibly absorb some inspiration from a talented craftsman. I had a bad first experience, I payed a Guy I met through a club to show me a technique and it didn’t take long to realize he didn’t know his butt from his bandsaw.I didn’t want to be rude so I payed him and went on my way. I’m just cautious now and wonder about all the offers for classes I see.
Horizontalmike all I can say about teachers is if they don’t like the pay get another job, maybe teaching woodworking classes then they can charge what they want.

-- Jeff,

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Bertha

13003 posts in 2155 days


#5 posted 07-28-2011 04:45 PM

Well Horizontal, I know what you’re saying. I’m sure this will be met with much criticism but I’m not convinced I learned anything at all from my public school teachers in Louisiana. I’m not entirely sure I learned anything in college in Lousiiana, for that matter. The people that I actually learned valuable skills from were paid very handsomely. Sallie Mae can attest to exactly how much. I’m MD, PhD so the “graduate” docs were paid substantially less, but still a good bit. I was in college for 4 years, grad school for 4 years, med school for 4 years, residency for 5 years, and fellowship for 1 year. I also did two years of research for next to nothing. That’s 18 years of training; more importantly 16 years of student loan interest bearing and loss of earning potential. By the time I got out of training, many of my friends with GED’s had worked up to making more than me.

Given that investment in time, I can’t justify not being paid for my time. Some will say I had some majic golden spoon in my mouth and it was all miraculously handed to me. I can promise you that it wasn’t.

-- My dad and I built a 65 chev pick up.I killed trannys in that thing for some reason-Hog

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Manitario

2397 posts in 2345 days


#6 posted 07-28-2011 04:47 PM

Dr. Ken and Al, it must be different in the US, people pay me all the time for my medical advice, but they don’t really follow it, that’s why I keep having to see them….

-- Sometimes the creative process requires foul language. -- Charles Neil

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Bertha

13003 posts in 2155 days


#7 posted 07-28-2011 04:49 PM

LOL Rob! As a forensic pathologist, my patients usually don’t have a whole lot to say to me. But you’re right, there terribly noncompliant;)

-- My dad and I built a 65 chev pick up.I killed trannys in that thing for some reason-Hog

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Cosmicsniper

2202 posts in 2620 days


#8 posted 07-28-2011 05:05 PM

My wife is a banker and works almost everyday. I, as a school teacher (high school math), get more time off than any other full-time occupation. And really, it’s not all that difficult of a job…stressful, yes, because you invest so much in the kids. I don’t even grade that many papers.

I get paid somewhat well when you consider the time off. Plus, think of all the money I save because I don’t have to pay summer child care for my three young kids. This is not something I fully understood until I met my wife and had those kids.

Do we deserve to be paid more? Certainly, but I’d much rather our state not have shorted this years budgetary funding and given more teachers jobs. Consequently, our classrooms will be even more full…which is the single most troubling aspect of our jobs. It’s very difficult to give individual attention to students when you have 32 kids in an Algebra II class, especially when most of them are only taking the class because they need it to graduate.

As far as getting paid to teach woodworking, if you are in it for a hobby, then you should teach it freely. Reminds me of the guy who takes his telescope and charges people to look through it…something that drives the local astronomy clubs crazy. Now, if your income is tied to woodworking, then by all means you should charge for your time. Or, if you place an advertisement in the paper for a paid workshop, and the market is there for it, then sure, do it. Otherwise, people who expect to be paid to share their hobbies should just go away, IMHO.

-- jay, www.allaboutastro.com

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Bertha

13003 posts in 2155 days


#9 posted 07-28-2011 05:10 PM

Jay, my respect for teachers is unparalleled. I couldn’t do it to save my life. I used to teach a couple nursing school classes filled with the most motivated, curious, and intelligent students you could ask for. It wore me out! I instructed a few medical school labs and their attitude was, “I don’t care. What do I need to know for the Boards”. When I prefered that attitude, I knew I’d be a horrible teacher.

-- My dad and I built a 65 chev pick up.I killed trannys in that thing for some reason-Hog

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CharlieM1958

16241 posts in 3680 days


#10 posted 07-28-2011 05:22 PM

As a forensic pathologist, my patients usually don’t have a whole lot to say to me. But you’re right, there terribly noncompliant;)

Or terribly compliant. It all depends on whether you order them to stick out their tongues or to lie still.

-- Charlie M. "Woodworking - patience = firewood"

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Earlextech

1159 posts in 2152 days


#11 posted 07-28-2011 05:26 PM

Thanks, Bertha, for providing proof that you learned more from people that were paid well than you did from your school teachers.

-- Sam Hamory - The project is never finished until its "Finished"!

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Cosmicsniper

2202 posts in 2620 days


#12 posted 07-28-2011 05:30 PM

Hey, Al, and thanks. You certainly have to be gifted and really care about making a difference. Our task is often less about teaching math and more about teaching kids the importance of learning and self-improvement…at least that is what I tell myself when most of those 32 juniors and seniors are on a 6 to 8th grade level in terms of math skills.

Our system is about passing kids along…kids don’t earn their grades in the lower levels anymore. So, those teachers’ problems become our problems in the upper levels. It all comes down to the philosophies of the administrators and educational leaders at the state level.

My first teaching job, at an inner-city high school, my principal told us during inservice that we were not allowed to give our kids a grade less than a 70 because we do not “promote failures at our school.” That was 17 years ago and still rings in my head to this day.

The average administrator in the state of Texas has about 3 years of classroom teaching experience. Those are the “experts” that define how we are to do our jobs. Some call it the Peter Principle. I just call it “broken.”

-- jay, www.allaboutastro.com

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HorizontalMike

7143 posts in 2376 days


#13 posted 07-28-2011 05:44 PM

Ah come on Jay, with 32 students in a class you could be giving EACH kid 1m 45sec of individual me-time attention, just as long as you ignore them during the REST of the class time and didn’t bother with teaching any lessons. ;-)

I will say this ONE MORE TIME because public schools truly teach this skill more than any particular “content skill”
Public school is where you first learned HOW to think and HOW to learn. With THAT skill you were then able to learn WHAT skills you need in life.

Learning is an individual skill and if you fail at knowing how to learn, or to teach yourself, you will fail at everything you attempt until you learn THAT basic processing skill. You can thank your public school teachers who taught that great lesson. Most students will insist that THEY survived public school on their own. And that my friend, is exactly the best lesson that is taught in public school. Learn HOW to learn.

-- HorizontalMike -- "Woodpeckers understand..."

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Cosmicsniper

2202 posts in 2620 days


#14 posted 07-28-2011 06:02 PM

Mike: I totally agree. The problem is, at the high school level, kids decide for themselves what is worth learning. It becomes an issue of motivation…which is what separates an average teacher from a great one. Unfortunately, you have a choice to make…”leave the kids behind” who don’t care or devote time and energy to those students thereby denying your caring students from further advancement.

Of course, I’m preaching to the choir with you, but I think many here, and even in our occupation, do not see this.

It’s a shame that, in many cases, we have to settle for the consolation prize of, “Oh, well, at least we taught the kids HOW to learn.” . I would be more pleased if we could teach our kids that learning all things has value…not just what they want to learn. Few kids are smart enough or experienced enough to know what they need at that level.

Otherwise, we need to change our model. 4 years each of the four major subjects is just not going to work…some kids need a trade apprenticeship instead…not everybody needs a college prep program.

-- jay, www.allaboutastro.com

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Bertha

13003 posts in 2155 days


#15 posted 07-28-2011 06:17 PM

Earlex Sam, you’re welcome. It sounds a bit dirty when you say it like that, but it is what it is. I transfered from a very capable Texas school to a very disfunctional school in Louisiana my second year of highschool. Where I was, you either ponied up for private school or you learned little. I did, however, learn a lot about drugs, drinking, and chewing tobacco. My college was much less demanding than my highschool in Texas, so I guess it’s a bit unfair to say I learned very little until graduate school. I did have that short stint in TX public school;)

Mike, I totally agree with you. I don’t feel like I learned to critically think until graduate school, but perhaps you’re right in that I learned the fundamentals at some obscure point previous. The skating by I did on my way to graduate school left me entirely unprepared for medical school. Even the transition from a medical graduate school to a proper medical school was a very difficult cognitive transition for me (from “think globally and integrate” to “memorize this and be ready to apply it”).

Mike, you clearly learned something along the way that gave you great intellectual capacity and a tremendous work ethic. I’m sure the miliatry played a large role in the requisite discipline. I don’t have the answers for our learnin problems. If I had it all to do over again, I’d be a plumber or an electrician. Quite seriously.

-- My dad and I built a 65 chev pick up.I killed trannys in that thing for some reason-Hog

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