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Forum topic by WoodNuts posted 06-18-2011 02:47 PM 2863 views 0 times favorited 12 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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WoodNuts

74 posts in 2410 days


06-18-2011 02:47 PM

Topic tags/keywords: question plane

Anyone use Veritas #6 Fore Plane?
How do you like it?
I read that the force transition from tote to body causes an uneven cut across the 3” width.
Do you like it or wish you went with LN #7?

How about #4 1/2 vs #4?

Should I go with low angle or standard?

Thanks for replies.

-- ...there's a fix fer dat...


12 replies so far

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WayneC

12642 posts in 3559 days


#1 posted 06-18-2011 04:43 PM

The first question would be, what are you building?

I’ve not used the Veritas #6, but would think a longer plane would be preferred for jointing (#7, #8 or a bu jointer) if your working with longer stock.

Personally, I prefer the 4 1/2 and 5 1/2 sizes over the even sizes…. I like the extra mass.

Low Angle vs. Standard angle? I would say personal preference and that it depends on what your doing with it. You can get extra blades for a low angle plane (e.g. LN Low Angle Jack) to perform different tasks.

-- We must guard our enthusiasm as we would our life - James Krenov

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WoodNuts

74 posts in 2410 days


#2 posted 06-22-2011 11:22 AM

So, I haven’t used planes before, and am thinking they would be useful for surfaces greater than my 6” power jointer and 13” planer. I wouldn’t get a jointer hand plane, but if I need to work a couple of 8” boards rather than cut strips to fit my jointer then glue them up, I would want to use a hand plane to flatten and glue up 2 boards rather than multiples of narrow stock.

Speaking of glue ups, again I would think the hand plane would be beneficial for final flatness.

Hence my question about the Fore plane. What do you recommend on the process, Jointer (or Fore), then 4-1/2? What do you use, LABU or standard?

Also, what is the best non-sanding way to finish?

Oh, I just saw your other post answering some of these questions, thanks.

-- ...there's a fix fer dat...

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docholladay

1287 posts in 2521 days


#3 posted 06-22-2011 12:11 PM

Looking at your added note, if you intend to use a plane for thicknessing and flattening larger panels than can fit in your jointer or planer, then you will need a combination of planes.

First, you would possibly want a scrub plane that is used to remove a lot of material quickly. This would be needed only if trying to take a board down in thickness a significant amount as it can take shavings almost 1/8” thick, but does not leave a smooth surface behind. It is purely a roughing tool. Instead of a scrub, you could also use a #4 or #5 set for rough work, but this would not be the same plane you use for smoothing, or at least you would need 2 separate blades – one for scrubbing and one for smoothing.

Second, you would need something like the #6 or possibly a #7 or #8 for the flattening process. This will take out most of the roughness left by the scrub plane. On wood without much figure, this could actually leave a surface ready for finish if the plane is good and sharp and set for fine cuts.

Third, you would need a smoothing plane, commonly a #3, 4 or 4 1/2 size plane, to bring the wood to final smoothness. My first choice is the no. 3. I just like it’s size weight and it fits my hand well. For larger panels like a table top, I use a 4 1/2 size plane because of the wider cutter. This plane, if tuned and set up correctly, will leave a surface ready for finish.

As you may guess, hand plane users soon become plane collectors because there are so many different variations of set up for various applications. For many of us, it is easier to have multiple planes, already setup for a task, rather than to have to change the settings of the plane each time we use it. For the purpose of thicknessing and flattening boards, there are actually several steps to follow in order for the process to go as quickly and efficiently as possible. You could do it with only one plane, but you could easily take all day for one board if trying to do it all with one plane. If you just want to buy a plane to start getting into them ane learning how to use them, go pick up a Stanley Bailey No. 4 or similar (should be able to find a decent user for less than $40), learn to sharpen, tune and use it and then decide if you want to spend the money for the LV or a Lie Nielsen. Even if you never actually use that old No. 4 much, what you learn from the process of cleaning, tuning, sharpening, etc will be valuable no matter what type of plane you decide on. As a final comment, the one plane that most folks, even power tool users, find to be indispensable to have handy is a good low-angle block plane. It has many uses and is the one that I use on almost every single project. In fact, I have several. My reason for this is to avoid sharpening. I go ahead and sharpen them all at once and then when starts to get dull (I don’t wait until they are completly dull as that would make the sharpening process take much longer), set it aside. When all of them get dull, then I sharpen all of them at the same time. See what I mean, hand plane users usually become plane collectors in a fairly short period of time.

Doc

-- Hey, woodworking ain't brain surgery. Just do something and keep trying till you get it. Doc

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WayneC

12642 posts in 3559 days


#4 posted 06-22-2011 04:25 PM

I think doc pretty much said it all. I have both standard angle and low angle planes. To a large extent it is a matter of preference. There is some additional versatility for the low angle planes if you extra blades and such. The low angle jacks are great in shooting boards…

A good way to get additional knowledge is to watch a DVD such as this one by Christopher Schwarz…

http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/handplane-basics-with-christopher-schwarz-dvd.aspx

-- We must guard our enthusiasm as we would our life - James Krenov

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WoodNuts

74 posts in 2410 days


#5 posted 06-22-2011 06:24 PM

Good info, thanks much.

WC, I will check Schwarz. I’ve read in some blogs he has some good stuff.

Doc, I am trying to understand the best stepdown procedure. Does it make sense to go 7 then 6, then 4-1/2, or will the 6 Fore work well enough without 7?
Or, would 7 to 4-1/2 work ok?
The scrub seems like a necessity to start from rough, regardless.
Where does the jack fit, between the scrub and 7?
The 4 or 5 with different blades, is this a 45 deg angle?

Jeez, I might end up with a planer wall better equiped than my clamp wall.
Also, I might be better off just cutting strips and gluing up panels and running them through the power tools, though I was hoping build panels with less seams.

Its almost like one has to choose between power vs hand tools, unless one is heavily bank rolled. To buy this much equipment to end up doing the same thing seems like an expensive redundancy.

My inexperience is showing here.
What I am getting at is I don’t mind buying quality tools within certain limits; I am trying to determine the best (and least expensive) way to build stuff. I know I will be moving into projects that will involve wider glue ups than my power tools can handle, but I don’t know how often I will need these things. After its all said and done, at 200-300 each, it may prove wiser to buy a drum sander. Oh, wait, did I just curse? Just kiddin’ around.

Alas, outfitting for any hobby can be spendy…

So I’m cool with the 4-1/2 smoother and LA block. I can see a need for that. Actually, I can see a need for all of it, I’m just trying to get my head around the duplication factor.

Crap, now I’m frustrated…

-- ...there's a fix fer dat...

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WayneC

12642 posts in 3559 days


#6 posted 06-22-2011 06:34 PM

It is simpler than that…

You want plane to do rough work. Normally a scrub plane or a Jack plane (#40 or #5 in stanley sizes). These blades are sharpened with a big camber so they take more agressive cuts. This plane is used to dimension a board and remove high spots to get the board roughly flat.

You then use a jointer (7 or 8 in Stanley Sizes) to make the board straigt and to establish 90 degree sides.

Finally you use a Smoothing plane (typically a #3, 4, or 4 1/2 to finish the board. If you do it right, the board should not need any sanding.

If further refining is needed a cabinet scraper or scraping plane can be used for final finishing.

The video I recommended show the stages listed above and how to sharpen and tune planes to perform the 3 tasks listed above.

Oh and the duplication factor is hard to avoid. Planes are like potao chips, you cannot only buy one…lol

-- We must guard our enthusiasm as we would our life - James Krenov

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neandernormite

37 posts in 2034 days


#7 posted 06-23-2011 01:20 AM

Alright, I’m going to be a different voice here, but that’s OK I have history on my side:) Seriously, however works for you do it, and to those who recommend the scrub, if they use it and like, good on them. However, I think the scrub is a recent idea that has taken root, and honestly I think alot of the people that recommend them don’t use them, they are simply stating what they have heard. One, a scrub is short, to short for flatting, it only causes problems. Two, and the more important part, that heavy radius on the iron make more problems than it helps. A jack plane with about a 1/16” drop on the camber will work much better than a scrub for most people for initial flattening. This doesn’t and shouldn’t really, be an expensive plane. It doesn’t have to be that flat at all, its not trying to make a thin whispey shaving, your ripping up chunks of wood with this guy. It even sounds different than other planes. No swoosh with this one, more like a chunking along train. Then go to a N0 7, No 8, or BU jointer. This needs to be flat, but not dead on really. I can get a .003 feeler gauge under my old No 7, in places that are “supposed” to be dead flat, and it still makes a board as flat as my BU Veritas jointer. Much flatter than a power planner btw. Then move to your smoother, I highly recommend the Vertias BU smoother, It got a wider blade and more mass than a No 4. It also carries it weight low and feels like it just huggs the board. As well as the option to change the angle of attack easily.
Thats all you need to flatten a board, I find most of the guys that end up with alot of bench planes, aren’t the guys that do alot of milling by hand. It seems the more hand milling you do, the more you become comfortable with the few planes you use, and don’t have a need for a bunch of others.

-- The confused powertool using galoot

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WayneC

12642 posts in 3559 days


#8 posted 06-23-2011 01:30 AM

I’m not sure there is much difference in any of the 3 explanations….. There are various tradeoffs and plane recommendations in each class of plane. Basically there are 3 stages and classes of bench planes. You need one plane set up to do each job… Also for full disclosure, I do not own a scrub plane, I am in the jack plane camp….lol

-- We must guard our enthusiasm as we would our life - James Krenov

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ArtsandCraftsBryan

7 posts in 1992 days


#9 posted 06-23-2011 02:15 AM

Wayne, I agree with you on the Jack Plane, I have a 5 1/2 LN that I do all my work with. But I also am not yet making furniture that requires a 7 or 8 for flatness yet. I simple have 4 blades in my quiver, one that has a strong camber “Scrub”, one with a lighter camber that I use for “joining” and “smoothing”, straight for using the plane when “mitering”, and a back beveled iron for working the most stubborn spots. One additonal benefit is that the material is dead flat up to the point of that capability of a 5 1/2.

-- Bryan, Kansas City

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WayneC

12642 posts in 3559 days


#10 posted 06-23-2011 02:23 AM

Bryan, is your real name David Charlesworth? lol He is a big fan of the 5 1/2. I’ve also heard of folks using a similar approach with the bevel up Jack planes by Lie-Nielson and Veritas. You can also get scraper (ln) and toothed blades (lv/ln) for them.

-- We must guard our enthusiasm as we would our life - James Krenov

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ArtsandCraftsBryan

7 posts in 1992 days


#11 posted 06-23-2011 02:43 AM

Well, Wayne, the first DVD and book I ever purchased was David Charlesworth’s. A funny side note to that is that my family did come from Devon where he resides, maybe I have so of those genes. But after going down that line and sampling the “Chris Schwarz cool-aid”, I always return to the idea that perfecting one tool will simplify your work load and multiply your production. I had asked Chris at a conferance about BU vs BD with one tool multiple irons including the BD toothed blade. He suggested that the ability to make changes “on the fly” gives the advantage to the BD. I have also used a BD plane with a toothed blade from L/N. The only problem was a couple broken teeth (in the plane) I must have been skewing too far one way and the force on the tooth broke it off. Sent the plane back to L/N and they honed grooves in the sole back out.

Alan Peters prefered to only used a 7… wrap your head around that.

-- Bryan, Kansas City

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WoodNuts

74 posts in 2410 days


#12 posted 06-25-2011 11:09 AM

OK, decision made.

Veritas
Low Angle Block (bed 12 deg, blade 25 deg with optional 38 deg)
BU Smoother (bed 12 deg, blade 38 deg)
BU Jointer (bed 12 deg, blade 25 deg)
BU Jack ((bed 12 deg, blade 25 deg)

The blades on the last 3 are interchangable.

Jeez, that racked me for a while…

Thanks for everybody’s input, very helpful.

Who knows, a drum sander may still be in the future :)

-- ...there's a fix fer dat...

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