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Forum topic by Wildwood posted 04-16-2018 10:08 AM 827 views 0 times favorited 12 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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Wildwood

2407 posts in 2253 days


04-16-2018 10:08 AM

While not a big fan of golden mean/rectangle or tri-angle for woodturning appreciate how Laura & Barry Uden tackle the subject of woodturning design. If just starting out or been around woodturning long time worth a look.

Woodturning Design by Laura & Barry Uden nice to know information with pictures. If PDF file link doesn’t work copy and post at you home page.

Http://www.westbaywoodturner.com/tu…ing Design.pdf

Articles and talking with Rude Osolnik many years ago convinced me rule of thirds a much simplier aproach to woodturning. A good way to accomplish this on some but not all of my woodturning achieving blance was o make my own Fibonaccai Gauge converting mm to inches.

http://www.goldennumber.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/golden-section-gauge.gif

Not the only turner to make their own gauge picked up on how to make from articles posted on message boards. I use my fibonacci gauge to mark lay out lines dividing the piece into thirds giving me proportions on larger pieces. Can also make a smaller guage if want too for smaller pieces.

Got tired of listening to and reading about turning guru’s telling turners have to use the golden mean to get the correct pleasing shape. Guess if you are a math wiz golden mean, golden rectangle, or golden triangle, a
must do! Some of these guru’s freely admit they don’t work all the time.

That’s why think if want good proportions a Fibonaccai gaugecan get you in the ball park without much effort. Books and computer programs abound giving you proportions & ratio’s formulas to help you putting lines on paper or computer screens.

Thing this very long You Tube video linked here discusses fact & fiction of using golden mean in design.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oyyXC5IzEE

-- Bill


12 replies so far

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Wildwood

2407 posts in 2253 days


#1 posted 04-16-2018 11:03 AM

Here is correct link could edit previous post in time; sorry for confusion

http://www.westbaywoodturners.com/tutorial/pdf_files/Woodturning_Design.pdf

You can see the authors at their web site:

http://udenwoodturning.com/

-- Bill

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LeeMills

584 posts in 1420 days


#2 posted 04-16-2018 02:18 PM

Thanks for the info.
I will have to go back and find the video on my tv… at 1.5 hours is just too long here.

When I do measure I use closer to the golden ratio (1 to 1.618) rather than the rule of 1/3’s. Rounding the 1.618 to 1.666 is only off 5/100, not much in woodworking. I believe Ray Key always specifies 2/5 for the top and 3/5 for the base for his boxes which fits the rule.
Using inches it is a pain but if using metric then you are only working with 1/5 with a base of 10. Anyone should be able to do that without a calculator.

-- We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them. Albert Einstein

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Wildwood

2407 posts in 2253 days


#3 posted 04-16-2018 04:23 PM

I used this photo to make my own Fibonacci gauge just by converting mm to inches in my prvious post:

You are not fussing with golden mead formular or fibonacci sequence. There is no math just adjust the fibonacci gauge and mark lines on the project and start turning.

You can also make these gagues any size you want or buy them in different sizes: https://www.woodpeck.com/fibonacci.html

Use this link because video explains use lot better than I can! If want to be a fuzzy butt and do the math go for it, but think video explain why don’t have too! Just use what works for you!

Started this thread to get turners to think about ratio’s & proportions and turning pleasing form without much fuss. That You Tube video posted earlier kind of tells why golden mean not absolute and not always used in designing everything.

-- Bill

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JollyGreen67

1676 posts in 2882 days


#4 posted 04-16-2018 04:59 PM

Woodturning Design is still in business ? I used to get their magazine, then it changed to some kind of combo Sunset/Women’s Day and I gave up.

-- When I was a kid I wanted to be older . . . . . this CRAP is not what I expected ! RIP 09/08/2018

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Woodknack

12336 posts in 2499 days


#5 posted 04-16-2018 07:50 PM

Good design is learned and recognizing good design is also learned. I’m no expert, not remotely, but I believe that using a specific guide or ratio is less important than being aware of what makes something look appealing and putting thought into your proportions. Whether it’s 1/3, 3/5, Golden Mean, 1/2, 1/1; they all have their place. Some years ago I made a bunch of small bowls to try different proportions and what I found was the ratio of base to diameter was most important (to me) and what you did in between made less difference. So a bowl with a base 1/3 or 1/4 the diameter looks pretty good whether the sides are straight, ogee, or a simple curve; whether the bowl is tall or short. A bowl with a base of 1/2 looks clunky. Once it got around 1/5 (base to height) it started looking more like a funnel.

-- Rick M, http://thewoodknack.blogspot.com/

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LeeMills

584 posts in 1420 days


#6 posted 04-17-2018 03:46 PM

Watched the videos last night and the professor was both entertaining and made good points.

I had thought of making a gauge years ago and never got around to it. If you want it quick and easy then it is great.

I was only trying to state that for me metric is easier. Whether 1/3 or the golden ratio to find a width of the base for a 10 5/8” bowl can be a pain. Using 1/3 or the golden ratio (2/5) of 270 mm is much easier to me. For the golden ration just divide by 5 then double it for the base. For flat woodworking I use inches but for woodturning I use metric since I will never have anything over 500 mm.

Lastly, to quote…”If want to be a fuzzy butt and do the math go for it…”
Either I learned a new term or auto correct kicked in. A fuzzy butt? :) Was that fussy butt?

-- We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them. Albert Einstein

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Wildwood

2407 posts in 2253 days


#7 posted 04-17-2018 07:53 PM

Learned to turn through trial & error, reading library & buying books, buying & watching videos, and attending turning seminars. Kind of learned about proportion and ratios without using any math. Back then advice given pretty simple checkout library books on pottery, both clay or glass forms. Make a scrap book of pictures of turning that inerest you.

Del Stubbs bowl turning video showed how to develop good form couple different ways using lines on paper & mirrow, chain and string. Del worked with Bob Stockdale for awhile before leaving woodturning altogether and became known for knives he makes.

Richard Raffan does the same in his book, “Turned-Bowl Design.” Raffan goes on to discuss golden mean and golden rectangle but goes on to illustrate different forms.

I have a copy of Woodturning Design where gent discribes how to use but tells you the golden mean not always perfect.

Russ makes a good case for using both the golden mean and rule of thirds.
http://woodcentral.com/russ/russ2.shtml

Cannot remember the ladies name but she turned a perfect vase without using the golden mean and called out Russ about that fact in post over at Wood Central several years ago. Russ a real gentelmen praised her work without getting angry in his reply. There is a math formula giving you proportions & ratios for every line you want to put on paper, or computer programs which let you see your design on comper screen.

I can use my fibanocci gauge to make layout lines right on the lathe whether trying to turn a blowl, hollow form, or spindle. Also lik the freedom to just turn small items without marking lines using just a ruler and pencil.

Think that Woodturning Design PDF file posted earlier not bad reference not only free but Uden’s undertook an ardous task of making sense of design options for woodturners.

Lee, guess didn’t have my nap but fuzzy or fussy butt works for me!

-- Bill

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Woodknack

12336 posts in 2499 days


#8 posted 04-17-2018 11:55 PM

What is a perfect vase?

-- Rick M, http://thewoodknack.blogspot.com/

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Wildwood

2407 posts in 2253 days


#9 posted 04-18-2018 09:19 AM

Guess have to pay attention to my word choice when posting here.

When you want to say pleasing form don’t use a word like perfect to describe a turned vase. Even words like flawless, immaculate, or impeccable might not be good choices to use here.

Thanks to all fuzzy or fussy butts being so vigil in policing my postings and improper choice of words.

-- Bill

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jeojohn

1 post in 158 days


#10 posted 04-18-2018 09:26 AM

Thank you for the post. Some links may confusing.Bu you cleared well.Keep it up

-- http://petrotek.ae/lubricants/grease-/89/graphite-grease

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Woodknack

12336 posts in 2499 days


#11 posted 04-18-2018 03:41 PM



Guess have to pay attention to my word choice when posting here.
- Wildwood

I wasn’t attacking your word choice, I’m trying to understand what you meant. I feel like you are going back and forth on the golden ratio so I wasn’t sure if by perfect you meant golden ratio or something else.

-- Rick M, http://thewoodknack.blogspot.com/

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Wildwood

2407 posts in 2253 days


#12 posted 04-18-2018 08:13 PM

Rick M, sorry for the confusing also think; I could have used better choice of words. If take at look at Woodturbing Design.PDF file by the Uden’s think will see several choices can follow when thinking about design.

Good design is more than just proportions and ratios. Design elements & principles also come into play but we haven’t even discussed them. Lot of that depends on wood figure, defects to show or fill, coloring, or material turning and most of all personal choices.

Its true don’t think much of the golden mean but JMHO. Did quite well without golden mean and Fibonacci gauge for more than a couple of years. Even with my gauge don’t always use it but nice to have marking off lines into thirds with a pencil right on the lathe.

Know a highly regarded woodturner recently moved his turning school from PA to NC famous for saying he designs with his gouge as he turns!

http://www.ellsworthstudios.com/map.pdf

Just know my woodturning improved a lot learning about rule of thirds from Rude Osolinik. Lessons from both David & Rude don’t make woodturning complicated.

Only thing could add to what they have said is don’t afraid to fail just go for it. If you are okay with the golden mean, or rule of thirds, and anything else go for it.

-- Bill

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