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Forum topic by Rayne posted 03-17-2018 08:24 PM 558 views 2 times favorited 18 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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Rayne

834 posts in 1507 days


03-17-2018 08:24 PM

Topic tags/keywords: tip question resource

Calling all LJ hive mind with a knack for electronics. I have been researching a way to create a cheap Dust Sensor bin similar to that of a popular device. I have the recommended parts, but not entirely sure how to wire all of this together. That’s where I would like LJ’s to come in and see what can be done to make this work. I researched the photosensor and found a very similar item (if not exact) to the one used in commercial businesses. I also found a review that listed the exact part I found, so that was reassuring. I’d appreciate any feedback into putting this together and would love to build this, post the build, and let anyone else have at making one themselves. What do you say? If you have any other parts to add, by all means, let’s see if we can make something as a community that could help all of us.

Parts:
1 – Banner QS18VP6D Sensor (there’s also QS18VN6D that seems to be more readily available, but I honestly don’t know the difference)
1 – 12V Strobe light
1 – 12V DC / 200mA power supply.


18 replies so far

View TheFridge's profile

TheFridge

9249 posts in 1453 days


#1 posted 03-17-2018 08:42 PM

The concept would work. Don’t know about those particular parts. I’d worry about dust build up on the emitter and receiver. If it was negligible it could work well.

I’d add some kind of off delay of about 10 secs.

I think that is the wrong sensor for what you’re trying to do.

-- Shooting down the walls of heartache. Bang bang. I am. The warrior.

View Redoak49's profile

Redoak49

3197 posts in 1956 days


#2 posted 03-17-2018 09:01 PM

I believe there were several thread on this over on the Creek(Sawmillcreek).

View Rayne's profile

Rayne

834 posts in 1507 days


#3 posted 03-17-2018 09:35 PM



I believe there were several thread on this over on the Creek(Sawmillcreek).

- Redoak49

Kind of weird that none of the sawmillcreek posts showed up when I searched for the threads until I typed in “sawmillcreek” as part of the keywords. A whole slew of posts popped up and there is indeed one that had all the information, like verbatim and pictures on how to make one. So very simple; even pointing out the differences between the PNP and NPN outputs. Thanks for pointing that out and now, I will go out and get the parts to make my own. This should be fun. :)

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becikeja

869 posts in 2781 days


#4 posted 03-17-2018 11:34 PM

Don’t believe I would use a photo sensor, I would suggest a capacitive proximity sensor.

-- Don't outsmart your common sense

View Mike_D_S's profile

Mike_D_S

467 posts in 2182 days


#5 posted 03-18-2018 04:52 PM

I did the design here: http://www.clearvuecyclones.com/forum/forum/clearvue-cyclones/general-to-be-organized/419-dust-bin-quantity-sensor

The only difference is I used a small LED bulb instead of a candelabra. The parts I got off of Amazon for about $40.

It’s easy to build and pretty reliable. In my case, my bin is closely coupled to the bottom of the cyclone (SDD), so I ran the system for a bit to see if the dust had a preferred side it stacked up on, then I mounted the light on the side of the bin and the electric eye on the lid above the light. I used a small household extension cord to make up a disconnect by cutting it in half and then wiring the cut ends to the light and to the relay. The plug ends serve as the disconnect for when I need to dump the bin.

Mike

-- No honey, that's not new, I've had that forever......

View Rayne's profile

Rayne

834 posts in 1507 days


#6 posted 04-03-2018 02:49 AM

Just completed my build after getting the right parts. Looks like it’ll work perfectly. It cost me about $40. Replacement parts are easier to find as this particular Banner sensor is more widely available. Going to integrate it into my DC hopefully tomorrow.

View Redoak49's profile

Redoak49

3197 posts in 1956 days


#7 posted 04-03-2018 10:56 AM

Good work! Could you post links for the parts. I am pretty electronically illiterate but want to build one.

View EEngineer's profile

EEngineer

1102 posts in 3581 days


#8 posted 04-06-2018 11:46 AM

I design industrial sensors for a living. I have even worked on systems for dust collection. There are few problems with this approach…

The biggest one has already been mentioned – photosensors don’t work well with sawdust because of dust buildup on the face. I am familiar with those Banner sensors. The company I work for makes a (very) similar line. They include a plastic filter on the face of them that collects fine sawdust due to static. You’ll be constantly cleaning it due to false trips. The other problem is false trips while the dust collection is working – the sawdust tends to swirl around while dust collection is running and may block the light enough to cause false trips while running. You may be able to adjust the sensitivity enough to cure either of these problems but in my experience it is very touchy.

May I suggest a capacitive sensor instead? In real world applications, capacitive sensors have proven to be more reliable than photosensors in sawdust detection. I have been experimenting with a capacitive sensor for my dust collection. It is really hodged up right now because I am still experimenting with it so there is nothing I would post as a project.

I have had good success with two approaches for the capacitive sensor:
1. I hung the sensor from the top of the dust collection canister on its cable. It hangs down to a specific heght and trips as the sawdust covers the sensor face. The sensitivity of the sensor can be adjusted so that a light covering of fine dust on the sensor head will NOT trip it but being immersed in sawdust WILL trip it.
2. The approach I think I will use, though, actually senses the sawdust level through the side of the dust collection canister. I am using a cardboard canister (I think it was used to ship soap powder originally) and I can adjust the sensitivity of the capacitive sensor so that it ignores the cardboard wall but will trip if the sawdust builds up inside the canister above the face of the sensor. This approach should work with a plastic container or almost any non-conducting material but NOT a a metal canister.

BTW, the difference between the two Banner models you mentioned (QS18VP6D vs QS18VN6D) is only the output configuration:
1. the “P” variant has a PNP output – i.e. the ouput pulls up to the + supply when tripped
2. the “N” variant has a NPN output – i.e. the output pulls down to the – supply when tripped

-- "Find out what you cannot do and then go do it!"

View Mike_D_S's profile

Mike_D_S

467 posts in 2182 days


#9 posted 04-06-2018 03:02 PM

Is there a particular sensor you are using. I see quite a few just skimming Amazon that seem to be rated for multiple materials and with input voltages suitable for 12v or 120v layouts.

This would be interesting to me to try out in parallel with the optical sensor I’m using now.

Mike

-- No honey, that's not new, I've had that forever......

View Rayne's profile

Rayne

834 posts in 1507 days


#10 posted 04-06-2018 04:33 PM



Good work! Could you post links for the parts. I am pretty electronically illiterate but want to build one.

- Redoak49

Go to Sawmillcreek and look for “Building your own and improving upon the Oneida dust sentry bin level sensor”. It’s only fair they get the credit and view for this. The links are posted there along with the wiring diagram.

But if the Banner sensor is not as good as other posters have said, maybe it needs to be slightly updated. I’m not sure. I’m going try to get mine installed this weekend. I’m doing another major MOD on my DC while adding this sensor and a pressure relief valve.

View Rayne's profile

Rayne

834 posts in 1507 days


#11 posted 04-06-2018 04:38 PM



I design industrial sensors for a living. I have even worked on systems for dust collection. There are few problems with this approach…

The biggest one has already been mentioned – photosensors don t work well with sawdust because of dust buildup on the face. I am familiar with those Banner sensors. The company I work for makes a (very) similar line. They include a plastic filter on the face of them that collects fine sawdust due to static. You ll be constantly cleaning it due to false trips. The other problem is false trips while the dust collection is working – the sawdust tends to swirl around while dust collection is running and may block the light enough to cause false trips while running. You may be able to adjust the sensitivity enough to cure either of these problems but in my experience it is very touchy.

May I suggest a capacitive sensor instead? In real world applications, capacitive sensors have proven to be more reliable than photosensors in sawdust detection. I have been experimenting with a capacitive sensor for my dust collection. It is really hodged up right now because I am still experimenting with it so there is nothing I would post as a project.

I have had good success with two approaches for the capacitive sensor:
1. I hung the sensor from the top of the dust collection canister on its cable. It hangs down to a specific heght and trips as the sawdust covers the sensor face. The sensitivity of the sensor can be adjusted so that a light covering of fine dust on the sensor head will NOT trip it but being immersed in sawdust WILL trip it.
2. The approach I think I will use, though, actually senses the sawdust level through the side of the dust collection canister. I am using a cardboard canister (I think it was used to ship soap powder originally) and I can adjust the sensitivity of the capacitive sensor so that it ignores the cardboard wall but will trip if the sawdust builds up inside the canister above the face of the sensor. This approach should work with a plastic container or almost any non-conducting material but NOT a a metal canister.

BTW, the difference between the two Banner models you mentioned (QS18VP6D vs QS18VN6D) is only the output configuration:
1. the “P” variant has a PNP output – i.e. the ouput pulls up to the + supply when tripped
2. the “N” variant has a NPN output – i.e. the output pulls down to the – supply when tripped

- EEngineer

Glad to have an expert chime in here. I’m no expert or even amateur by any means. lol. I’m just following what I found, but have read in other places the Photoelectric probably isn’t the best as you confirmed. I haven’t done any research on capacitive sensor and how easy it would be to rewire it if the phototelectric sensor fails, but like I said in my original post, this would be a good reference in the future for all of us if we all get one working with optimal performance. Thanks for helping out and let us know how yours turns out in the end.

View Rayne's profile

Rayne

834 posts in 1507 days


#12 posted 04-06-2018 04:39 PM



Is there a particular sensor you are using. I see quite a few just skimming Amazon that seem to be rated for multiple materials and with input voltages suitable for 12v or 120v layouts.

This would be interesting to me to try out in parallel with the optical sensor I m using now.

Mike

- MikeDS

Not sure who you’re referencing, but I’m using the Banner QS18VN6D sensor and used the correct wiring diagram for the N output model from the Sawmill creek post reference above.

View Mike_D_S's profile

Mike_D_S

467 posts in 2182 days


#13 posted 04-07-2018 01:37 PM

Sorry, should have been more specific. I’d like to know which capacitive sensor EEngineer was using in his testing.

Mike

-- No honey, that's not new, I've had that forever......

View EEngineer's profile

EEngineer

1102 posts in 3581 days


#14 posted 04-07-2018 01:55 PM

It shouldn’t be a big deal to substitute a different sensor. They are all wired the same way:

BRN= +V (positive rail)
BLU = -V (negative rail)
BLK = sensor output

Like I said before, if it is a PNP output, it will pull up to the positive rail. If it is a NPN output , it will pull down towards the negative rail. It doesn’t matter whether it is a photo or a capacitrive sensor, they all have he same interface.

The specific sensor I am using for my tests are no longer made (that’s why I have them – they were being thrown out) but they are quite similar to this:
TOOGOO DC 6-36V 300mA NO 3-wire Capacitance Proximity PNP Switch Sensor Detector 1-25mm
(search on amazon)

I used a 24VDC DIN rail supply and a simple LED to show whwn canister is full.

-- "Find out what you cannot do and then go do it!"

View Mike_D_S's profile

Mike_D_S

467 posts in 2182 days


#15 posted 04-07-2018 06:55 PM


The specific sensor I am using for my tests are no longer made (that s why I have them – they were being thrown out) but they are quite similar to this:
TOOGOO DC 6-36V 300mA NO 3-wire Capacitance Proximity PNP Switch Sensor Detector 1-25mm
(search on amazon)

- EEngineer

I didn’t do a lot of research, but how focused is the sensing area of this type of sensor. I would assume that since they are commonly mounted perpendicular to the material to be sensed, leading me to think they would have a focused sensitive region out the end of the sensor.

But that would mean that mounting it to the side of a dust bin drum would have the sensor sticking out a bit and potentially being well positioned to get caught on something when moving the drum around.

Would they have much sensitivity to the sides so it could potentially be mounted more or less banded to the side of the drum?

Mike

-- No honey, that's not new, I've had that forever......

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