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What does a big boy jointer add?

2K views 34 replies 16 participants last post by  mfhall 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
Hi folks.

I have a somewhat conceptual question. I have a good quality contractors saw that doesn't quite cut good enough. I am whittling down the issues one-by-by one, but I'm basically running out of things I can do to upgrade its performance. Basically, after installing splitters, which I hope to have done this week, I've exhausted the possibilities other than buying a bigger motor (which would cost as much as I paid for the saw) and maybe a link belt. Blades are new, belt is new, bought a stiffener, even changed the fence face, which had wear spots. The saw been aligned to death. Trust me.

I'm told I can't expect much more out of the saw. Right now it can handle 3/4 and 4/4 hardwoods, but it struggles with any serious hardwood at 6/4. My question is how much a big boy long-bed jointer that could properly dress long boards would help. I currently have a decent short-bed jointer (44i) but it won't take the bend out of long-5ft+-pieces. A good long-bed jointer (72i) has come available for a decent, but not great price.

Would buying the long-bed jointer give me better results working in tandem with the contractors saw, or not?

Floyd
 
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#2 ·
Floyd I struggled for several years with very old contractors saw. I was extremely blessed to find an amazing deal on a cabinet saw. The difference was like night and day. The quality I've been able to produce is amazing. I'd suggest that you upgrade to a cabinet saw if you have the room. To my way of thinking the table saw is the center piece of my shop. Every other tool only improves on it.

Understand it was not my first choice. I settled for it due to the cost and close proximity. Honestly I haven't regretted the purchase. It's increased the quality of my work. Money well spent.
 
#3 ·
Splitters, link belts, jointers - none of that is going to improve the cut on your saw. I'd suggest what Bob said. If you are unhappy with the performance of your saw, upgrade to a better saw. If you are concerned about space, keep in mind that a hybrid or cabinet saw takes up less space than a contractor saw - tables are basically the same size, but you won't have a motor hanging out the back.

Cheers,
Brad
 
#4 · (Edited by Moderator)
Will a better jointer help at all? I was hoping being able to dress the boards better would make for better cuts on the contractors saw-that on long boards straighter boards would make things easier on the contractors saw.

I ask because I'd like to keep the contractors saw to use it as a job site saw. I also don't have a lot of room in my shop and the mobility is good.

Floyd
 
#7 · (Edited by Moderator)
We all face this same battle when using with contractor grade saw with a 110VAC motor.
None of them cut 6/4 or 8/4 stock quickly due to lack of horsepower. They should cut it cleanly when properly tuned, but not as fast as 4/4 stock.

One trick I did not see you mention was saw blades?
When ripping thick stock with contractors saw, using a thin kerf rip blade can help a lot. I use a Freud 24 tooth glue line blade when ripping heavier stock, and it helps increase cutting speeds on my Rigdid 1.5HP contractors saw .vs other blades. Can also help to use a combination blade for cross cuts as they seem to clear waste better than blade with uniform tooth pattern, but can suffer lower cut quality.

Best luck.
 
#8 · (Edited by Moderator)
Floyd, your boards may be straighter, but the saw is still going to struggle just the same.

How many teeth are your saw blades your using?

- jbay
I have three thin-kerf Freud blades-30T rip, 50T combo and a 60T cross-cut. The 30T and 50T are brand new. Someone suggested trying a 7 1/4i blade and it actually did okay. So I was thinking about buying a smaller-a 7 1/4i or maybe 8i-Forrest blade. I only need to cut up to 6/4. I don't need the saw to go beyond that. At a minimum I need it to cut 4/4 without struggling or creating burn marks.
 
#10 ·
Floyd - I currently have a Ridgid contractor saw. To straighten out long boards that are bowed may be a waste of wood and not get the results you are looking for.

If I have a live edge and want to straighten the board out, I have a nice 6' level that I clamp to the board in a way that will give me the grain I want. If it is too much of a mess, I take some of the high spots off with a skill saw. If they are short pieces, I put them on a sled.

Just some ideas.
 
#12 ·
It s a Powermatic 64A. It s got a nice table top and fence. Just not quite enough motor.

- Floyd Hall
I saw one of those 64A's up for sale in my neighborhood a few years ago. I was considering making an offer until my research on the saw yielded one owner after another complaining of the exact problem that you're reporting. The inability to get an accurate cut. From what I gathered, the machine was flawed in it's design.

Perhaps a better strategy would be to start by replacing it with a better quality contractor's saw. It'll cost less than a cabinet saw, take up less space and will allow you to have money left over to purchase the jointer. The only problem you may have is finding a buyer for the PMatic.
 
#13 ·
I was in similar situation last year using a 25 year old Craftsman contractors table saw. I bought the Grizzly G1023RLW and haven't looked back. Once I started using the new saw I was practically kicking myself for waiting so long to buy a new saw. I didn't realize how bad the old one was until I used the new one. Save yourself a lot of time and aggravation and buy another saw.
 
#14 · (Edited by Moderator)
you re not able to clean up the line on a 5 board with your current jointer?

- avsmusic1
I can do 5ft, but past that it's dicey. If I remember correctly, there's a rough formula for this-twice the length of the outfeed table. That's 22i, so 44i would be the max. length according to the formula. This jointer would give me 72i of cutting length if I remember the formula correctly.
 
#15 · (Edited by Moderator)
It s a Powermatic 64A. It s got a nice table top and fence. Just not quite enough motor.

- Floyd Hall

I saw one of those 64A s up for sale in my neighborhood a few years ago. I was considering making an offer until my research on the saw yielded one owner after another complaining of the exact problem that you re reporting. The inability to get an accurate cut. From what I gathered, the machine was flawed in it s design.

Perhaps a better strategy would be to start by replacing it with a better quality contractor s saw. It ll cost less than a cabinet saw, take up less space and will allow you to have money left over to purchase the jointer. The only problem you may have is finding a buyer for the PMatic.

- Ripper70
I think it cuts as well as any contractors saw and they're all designed about the same. If I buy a new saw, it will be a cabinet saw. Like I said, the table top and fence are great and it cuts 3/4 and 4/4 stock pretty well. After that, it will cut 6/4 poplar and pine easily. It's when you get to 6/4 oak, hickory, etc., it starts to struggle. I've been working with hickory because that's what I chose for my work tables. It's particularly hard and the saw struggles with it. This was largely intentional. I wanted to know exactly what the saw would do. A guy somewhere said he swapped out the motor for a 2 hp and that made a significant difference. He's a contractor and needed it as a job site saw. I just don't want to put $400 for a new motor into this. If I was a contractor, I probably would.

The cuts are accurate, by the way, even on the hardwoods. I just get burn marks, which are a pain to sand out.
 
#16 ·
I was in similar situation last year using a 25 year old Craftsman contractors table saw. I bought the Grizzly G1023RLW and haven t looked back. Once I started using the new saw I was practically kicking myself for waiting so long to buy a new saw. I didn t realize how bad the old one was until I used the new one. Save yourself a lot of time and aggravation and buy another saw.

- LazarusDB
What I've been thinking.
 
#18 ·
I've known people who have decent cabinet saws, well set up, and they were jointing wood planks to wood planks and gluing them up right off the saw. It takes a fairly large saw with a decent sized table to do this, but I've seen it, and one guy I met didn't even have a jointer. He just started with a first cut, then used his fence and table as straight edges as he squared off his stock.

I don't do it, but I've seen it done.
So like most others who have posted, your next set of dollars should go to a good cabinet saw with a decent sized table, and 2HP or better.
 
#20 ·
I ve known people who have decent cabinet saws, well set up, and they were jointing wood planks to wood planks and gluing them up right off the saw. It takes a fairly large saw with a decent sized table to do this, but I ve seen it, and one guy I met didn t even have a jointer. He just started with a first cut, then used his fence and table as straight edges as he squared off his stock.

I don t do it, but I ve seen it done.
So like most others who have posted, your next set of dollars should go to a good cabinet saw with a decent sized table, and 2HP or better.

- Tennessee
I worked in two cabinet shops and neither one had a jointer-just big Powermatic 66 table saws that were well-maintained and could cut glue-edge joints. I bought this contractors saw because I figured it was best-in-class. Like I said, for the most part, it's a good saw. It just doesn't have enough power. There apparently are also some problems with bevel cuts. They pull the blade mechanism out of alignment. This was another reason to look at the jointer.

I could see this saw being a perfectly good saw with a 2 hp motor, a double-pulley and a little sturdier and better-designed under-carriage. You just have to wonder why they didn't do that. You're talking something that would add only $50-100 to the saw. Anyway, I recently looked at a newish 3 hp Delta cabinet saw. I wasn't thrilled with the construction of that either. They've really cut too fine a line between performance and cost. Really seems like they've erased that line. I wouldn't buy a 2 hp 'hybrid' saw just because it looks like a cabinet saw. You take away all the mobility and you don't add that much power.
 
#22 · (Edited by Moderator)
As an FYI -
If you are regularly burning your wood either your blade is dull or the fence or blade is out of alignment. Even crap saws, if aligned correctly will not usually burn.

As smooth as my saw cuts (and it is pretty smooth), I use a #8 plane on the edges for my joints. When you place the boards edge to edge, the boards make a straight line, no light shows through the entire length, and if you try to move the top board across the edge and there is serious friction - your joints will be clean and solid. The corners of the edges of the wood, even on poplar, can be sharp enough to cut you.

Your plane - if it is truly sharp, should make shavings that you can see through and glide across the wood. If it is difficult to push, tearing out the wood, or just a pain, you are taking too much off, not sharp or both.
 
#23 ·
As an FYI -
If you are regularly burning your wood either your blade is dull or the fence or blade is out of alignment. Even crap saws, if aligned correctly will not usually burn.

As smooth as my saw cuts (and it is pretty smooth), I use a #8 plane on the edges for my joints. When you place the boards edge to edge, the boards make a straight line, no light shows through the entire length, and if you try to move the top board across the edge and there is serious friction - your joints will be clean and solid. The corners of the edges of the wood, even on poplar, can be sharp enough to cut you.

Your plane - if it is truly sharp, should make shavings that you can see through and glide across the wood. If it is difficult to push, tearing out the wood, or just a pain, you are taking too much off, not sharp or both.

- dbray45
The blade was pinching a bit, but we opened it and the burning has gone down. There were also wear spots in the fence face that didn't help matters, and I had pitch build up on the inside of the blade. So I switched fence faces and opened (and cleaned) the blade. The real problem has come when I try to switch hands and there's a little hitch in the feed rate. That's when I get burn marks. No matter what, on the heavy cuts, the saw does bog down. I get burn marks then, too.

Anyway, I hope to have the splitters in the next day or so and then we'll see. I even set up a jig so I can check the alignment in a quicker fashion. Hopefully this problem will go away, but I tend to doubt it. People I've talked to said the saw is probably at the out end of it's capability and I should just tough it out till I have enough money for a better saw.
 
#25 ·
Dont snarl but what about a #7 hand plane to dress the burned edges? Can also be used to flatten glued up panels faster and flatter than sanding. Will straighten bowed cuts. Doesnt require any floor space.

- OSU55

Snarl.

- Floyd Hall

What s a good one?

- Floyd Hall

Lie-Nielsen

- Jon Hobbs
I didnt want to recommend a $425 tool to someone that isnt "into" hand planes. A $300 woodriver is enough sticker shock
 
#26 ·
Dont snarl but what about a #7 hand plane to dress the burned edges? Can also be used to flatten glued up panels faster and flatter than sanding. Will straighten bowed cuts. Doesnt require any floor space.

- OSU55

Snarl.

- Floyd Hall

What s a good one?

- Floyd Hall

Lie-Nielsen

- Jon Hobbs

I didnt want to recommend a $425 tool to someone that isnt "into" hand planes. A $300 woodriver is enough sticker shock

- OSU55
Yeah, I'm just recovering consciousness.
 
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