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CPSC Disses Sawstop....sorta

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Forum topic by Gene Howe posted 04-06-2011 07:38 PM 2423 views 0 times favorited 23 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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Gene Howe

8259 posts in 2895 days


04-06-2011 07:38 PM

Not exactly a diss, but I’ll bet Gass was fuming anyway.
Good to see there are some sane folks at the CPSC.

SPSC Minutes

-- Gene 'The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him.' G. K. Chesterton


23 replies so far

View Bertha's profile

Bertha

13003 posts in 2159 days


#1 posted 04-06-2011 08:01 PM

It all makes perfect sense to me. They weighed the pros, cons, stats, and dollars & said no. I can live with that.

-- My dad and I built a 65 chev pick up.I killed trannys in that thing for some reason-Hog

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brtech

906 posts in 2389 days


#2 posted 04-06-2011 08:10 PM

Dunno, this was pretty standard stuff for rulemaking. Rules roughly never cite any specific technology, and always specify performance, but often the performance can only be met one way. If Gass had an experienced CSPC lawyer around, he is probably smiling pretty wide.

You have to read between the lines. The PTI guys didn’t suggest they had a better way: they just said the SawStop solution wasn’t to their liking. They didn’t say they would have a solution in any particular time. They didn’t suggest what kind of performance standard they could accept.

For an inquiry, my conclusion would be in the absence of alternatives, the CPSC would propose a standard that could be met by SawStop, and possibly no other known technology.

I was particularly amused by the notion that because SS works so well, users would be tempted to take more chances. That would be true of each and every rule CPSC created. If you make a product safer, some idiot will push the boundaries. That doesn’t suggest any alternatives that make any sense. PTI didn’t offer any suggestions on how to construct a device that would make a TS safer and not encourage the problem they are talking about.

A real simple thing to remember when dealing with a regulator is: if they have identified an actual problem, and you are unsuccessful at convincing them there is no problem, you have to offer real alternatives that solve the problem. You cannot just say “no”. You have to say “well, not that, this is better”. PTI didn’t do that. They will lose until they do.

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TheDane

4997 posts in 3129 days


#3 posted 04-06-2011 08:20 PM

“Some members believe that most table saw injuries were occurring when people did not follow appropriate safety measures.”

Like the Osorio case?

—Gerry

-- Gerry -- "I don't plan to ever really grow up ... I'm just going to learn how to act in public!"

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ClayandNancy

511 posts in 2481 days


#4 posted 04-06-2011 08:31 PM

Accidents will happen but I believe the numbers of them would be greatly reduced if people would follow the safety standards set forth on any tool and not ask it to do a job they are not designed to do. Seems like common sense to me.

View agallant's profile

agallant

530 posts in 2353 days


#5 posted 04-06-2011 08:32 PM

Uh oh a nother sawstop thread, we all know where these topics end up

. Some day I am going to create the Sawstop is the only table saw to have and festool is not overpriced and Forrest WWII blades suck thread and watch the site melt down.

-AG

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brtech

906 posts in 2389 days


#6 posted 04-06-2011 08:43 PM

Sure, but nearly all of the CPSC rules happen even in the presence of warnings. That may or may not be a good thing, but it is reality.

CPSC mostly deals with reality. If users do the right thing, then we don’t get injuries and we don’t get more rules. When there is a problem identified, improved warnings and manuals are the usual first response. The problem is, there isn’t usually any way to get users to follow the warnings, and often the design of the device makes it hard. In TS, the guard is often removed because it gets in the way of using the saw. That’s a very clear design defect. A warning to always use the guard is worthless.

If warnings don’t work, then design has to change. That’s what nearly always happens.

In lots of ways, we would all be better off if stupid humans RTFM and paid attention. They don’t. We have a real choice: we could require said stupid people to pay for the consequences of their stupidity, such as not letting insurance cover them when they cut their finger off. We then get all kinds of lawsuits defining what stupid is. Or we can continue to let the CPSC deal with the reality and force changes in design.

When you get right down to it, a product that lets a user easily cut off his finger is a poorly designed product. We’re only arguing about whether we should allow poorly designed products on the market because it’s too expensive to make them safe. We do that by putting a price on people’s lives and comparing. If we save more money by forcing the design change, we generally go that way.

Of course, we allow people to drive cars, a great example of path two.

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ClayandNancy

511 posts in 2481 days


#7 posted 04-06-2011 08:51 PM

I think they should Sawstop technology on autos. If you touch your cell phone and the car at the same time it would drop you out the bottom and stop the car.

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tommyt654

122 posts in 2915 days


#8 posted 04-07-2011 02:15 AM

Been there, Done that, http://lumberjocks.com/topics/26022

View Bertha's profile

Bertha

13003 posts in 2159 days


#9 posted 04-07-2011 02:28 AM

Sorry Tommy.

-- My dad and I built a 65 chev pick up.I killed trannys in that thing for some reason-Hog

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tommyt654

122 posts in 2915 days


#10 posted 04-07-2011 02:50 AM

No problem I.m glad others are following this closely. I for one hope they make the correct decision regardless of what some here may think and have voiced my opinion loud and clear regarding Gass’s attempts to hijack our hobby for his personal gain. You might do so as well by sending you message here.

Robert Adler
Commissioner
U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission
4330 East West Highway
Bethesda, MD 20814-4408301-504-7731 (phone)
radler@cpsc.gov

View HorizontalMike's profile

HorizontalMike

7156 posts in 2380 days


#11 posted 04-07-2011 03:49 AM

Tommy654 says it all.

Geez, pay attention the first time so we don’t have to correct your inattention. Personally,I am waiting on the WoodWorkerSTOP that will stop the repeats! Great topic, just pay attention the first time.

-- HorizontalMike -- "Woodpeckers understand..."

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DrDirt

4169 posts in 3209 days


#12 posted 04-07-2011 03:50 AM

LIke Deke mentioned – the concept that “we shouldn’t do this because PEOPLE WOULD BE LESS CAREFUL” if there were blade brakes installed – followed by they wouldn’t install if there were zero royalties helps to point out the the PTI (Power Tool Institute) is basically a collective bunch of lawyers who offer CYA position statements to regulators, rather than seeing testimony from Delta, and Powermatic, and Jet and on and on.

I think the technology is great – but should be voluntary for us. However I think it should be mandator in schools full of hormonal teens that are just as stupid and reckless as I was as a teenager. Especially when the alternative is to close another school shop program

-- 'Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners' ~George Carlin

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dusty2

321 posts in 2896 days


#13 posted 04-07-2011 02:50 PM

I agree with DrDirt but would add that a really caring person like DrGass should donate those SawStops to all those schools with shop programs. A really great gesture that would be.

-- Making Sawdust Safely

View agallant's profile

agallant

530 posts in 2353 days


#14 posted 04-07-2011 02:57 PM

So I am going to rock the boat here and say that I don’t think it would be a bad idea for them to recommended some saw stop like technology in all table saws. I think by not recommending the technology it is holding innovation back. If they were to recommended that all table saws had a saw stop like technology in it naturally the manufactures would not want to license a competorters product so they would have to innovate their way out of that situation which in the end would be better for the consumer, imagine all of the different designs that could be made that don’t destroy blades, need new cartridge, cost $2,00 for the base model, and save fingers.

View Gene Howe's profile

Gene Howe

8259 posts in 2895 days


#15 posted 04-07-2011 03:01 PM

Sorry, guys. Wasn’t aware Tommy had posted this already.

Dusty and DrDirt make great points. One might overlook Gass’ bullying if he were to donate to some struggling HS shop program.

-- Gene 'The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him.' G. K. Chesterton

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