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Hammer K3 Winner, PM2000 or Sawstop?

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Forum topic by copythat posted 01-09-2018 04:45 AM 1958 views 0 times favorited 55 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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copythat

150 posts in 721 days


01-09-2018 04:45 AM

I am going to sell my Powermatic PM1000 because it is underpowered and not able to do what my old Unisaw could do. I have been looking at various options and started focusing on the PM2000 and Sawstop and their various options. My old Unisaw had a sliding table attachment and I really liked it. Sawstop has a couple options but PM offers no such option.

Tonight I was perusing the Internet when I stumbled across the Hammer line of sliding table saws. I like the Hammer K3 winner 79×48” saw with outrigger table. It is expensive at $5,400 but somewhat comparable to a fully loaded SS with heavy duty sliding table attachment.

Can anyone with a K3 winner recommend the table saw? Was there a big learning curve in how you do things? Can you do everything on the sliding table saw that you could do on the cabinet saw with jigs?

-- Rob


55 replies so far

View MinnesotaMarty's profile

MinnesotaMarty

126 posts in 1333 days


#1 posted 01-09-2018 02:10 PM

Rob,
I read your post and could identify with the mental gymnastics that you’re going thru. I recently retired and have closed my design/build business and am in the process of selling much of my old worn out tools and equipment and upgrading for being able to do pure woodworking which over the years in business I seemed to have gotten away from. Payroll, ordering, contracts, subs, are all gone now. Its just me and a long list of projects to build
I have a Unisaw in my shop that is 30+ years old. It needs to be gone over completely if I am going to keep it. From now on I, or my son will be the only people using the tools. My wife wants me to get the Sawstop for the safety aspect.
A few years back we had a customer that we built an addition for, that was an accomplished woodworker and had a very nice shop. He had a Hammer combination machine. He claimed it to be fantastic. If I recall it was a 5hp, single phase. He did say that there was a learning curve but, nothing that was earth shaking.
I do know that Hammer machines hold there value very well. Whenever, I see one for sale it is not discounted much.
Right now I am thinking of getting the K3 and keeping the Unisaw just in case I don’t like the K3. Roger, the client with the Hammer combination machine, says that U won’t be sending the K3 back.
Just my input. Good Luck on your decision.

Marty

-- I can see the cheese heads from here and it is great.

View Planeman40's profile

Planeman40

1238 posts in 2876 days


#2 posted 01-09-2018 03:23 PM

I own a Hammer K3 48’ x 48” and love it! First of all, it is deadly accurate right out of the crate! If it shows a dimension or an angle, you can count on it. The sliding table works beautifully and allows accurate cutting safely as your hands and fingers never need to get close to the blade. The sliding table allows work to be clamped down when run through the saw eliminating problems with work slippage making a bad cut. Plenty of power in the motor. The fence is very accurate and can be tilted back out of the way for long cross cuts. No need to remove it from the saw (its pretty heavy anyway). Also, the fence allows it to be quickly slid back so the far end stops at the saw blade. Great for multiple cut-offs, allows them to accumulate beside the saw blade as you continue cutting. The long miter gauge is easily put on or taken off and comes with a sliding “stop” that is very useful.

All in all, this saw is so versatile that you keep dreaming up new ways to do things with it. I keep seeing little advantages to all of the movable and adjustable features and the T-slots all over the place invite clamping on jigs and fixtures for all kinds of things.

Just my two cents!

-- Always remember: It is a mathematical certainty that half the people in this country are below average in intelligence!

View scrubs's profile

scrubs

46 posts in 376 days


#3 posted 01-09-2018 06:38 PM

Felder… mmmmmm

If you can afford it go for it. They are impressive beasts.

Powermatic used to make one, something like HSP-126 or some such? Might be able to find a used one. Every time I google it there’s always a bunch out there.

-- It all seems like a good idea at some point...

View Loren's profile

Loren

10477 posts in 3763 days


#4 posted 01-09-2018 06:54 PM

Powermatic sliders are rebadged Robland
machines. Same owner.

I have a Felder. Wish I had the space for
a full-sized slider. If you do, you can find them
used for less than a Hammer k3 new.

Sliders are terrific saws. My only real complaint
is the crosscut fence can interfere with ripping and
has to be removed and reinstalled, which takes
longer than doing the same with a miter gauge.

View TungOil's profile

TungOil

1004 posts in 610 days


#5 posted 01-10-2018 01:14 AM

You might consider a Minimax/SCMI as well, if the Hammer is in your price range. All great saws.

I have the PM2000, and while it is a very nice saw, as you mentioned no factory slider (maybe aftermarket?) and I find the dust collection is terrible. With 3 hp, I have never had a power issue. Fit and finish on the saw is very good in my opinion.

-- The optimist says "the glass is half full". The pessimist says "the glass is half empty". The engineer says "the glass is twice as big as it needs to be"

View Planeman40's profile

Planeman40

1238 posts in 2876 days


#6 posted 01-10-2018 01:33 AM

”My only real complaint is the crosscut fence can interfere with ripping and has to be removed and reinstalled, which takes longer than doing the same with a miter gauge.”

I don’t see this being much of a problem. Just loosen the two tightening knobs on the crosscut fence (which is a really great one!), turn it 45 degrees, and slide it off. Just takes a second. It is fairly large and slightly heavy (which makes it good). I built a small long shelf on the side of the saw. When I remove the fence, I just slide it lengthwise onto the shelf. Just takes another second.

-- Always remember: It is a mathematical certainty that half the people in this country are below average in intelligence!

View buckbuster31's profile

buckbuster31

254 posts in 631 days


#7 posted 01-10-2018 03:48 AM

No experience with others, but I love my sawstop

View msinc's profile

msinc

497 posts in 619 days


#8 posted 01-10-2018 03:10 PM

I am currently in the predicament that I too need a good cabinet/table saw. My take on the Hammer slider thing is that unless you are running a business and/or have money to spend this one should probably be out. The cold, hard fact is that the only way I can justify four times the money just to have the slider is that as a business having to constantly cut large pieces I can eliminate one employee. Instead of two employees at the saw I can do the same thing with one. Beyond that, I just don’t see it at my level of use/need. This doesn’t even factor in or consider that you have to buy special blades, no doubt four times the money {or more} as well.
All that said, there is not a table saw made I cannot buy today and I seem to have that rare ability {haha!} of being able to convince myself that I will have use for something at some unforeseeable point. My problem is that I also need a dust collection system and I also want that to be a decent one too…I also do have a little bit of a frugal side too, so for what the Hammer slider thing cost I can easily have a decent saw and DCS both.

Edit: I do find it interesting that we kick around the idea that the adjustability and accuracy of equipment at this level is something we need to discuss as if it somehow might fall short. One thing is for certain, if I have to “wonder” about whether or not a saw will cut right then I am considering the wrong saw!!! On the other hand, if I get a new $8200 plus saw home and find I need to adjust a fence or set the kerf I am just going to go ahead and do it and move on with life, I am not going to cry, call the factory and expect some lab coat guy to show up an hour later to “take care of it”.

View copythat's profile

copythat

150 posts in 721 days


#9 posted 01-10-2018 03:45 PM



I am currently in the predicament that I too need a good cabinet/table saw. My take on the Hammer slider thing is that unless you are running a business and/or have money to spend this one should probably be out. The cold, hard fact is that the only way I can justify four times the money just to have the slider is that as a business having to constantly cut large pieces I can eliminate one employee. Instead of two employees at the saw I can do the same thing with one. Beyond that, I just don t see it at my level of use/need. This doesn t even factor in or consider that you have to buy special blades, no doubt four times the money {or more} as well.
All that said, there is not a table saw made I cannot buy today and I seem to have that rare ability {haha!} of being able to convince myself that I will have use for something at some unforeseeable point. My problem is that I also need a dust collection system and I also want that to be a decent one too…I also do have a little bit of a frugal side too, so for what the Hammer slider thing cost I can easily have a decent saw and DCS both.

Edit: I do find it interesting that we kick around the idea that the adjustability and accuracy of equipment at this level is something we need to discuss as if it somehow might fall short. One thing is for certain, if I have to “wonder” about whether or not a saw will cut right then I am considering the wrong saw!!! On the other hand, if I get a new $8200 plus saw home and find I need to adjust a fence or set the kerf I am just going to go ahead and do it and move on with life, I am not going to cry, call the factory and expect some lab coat guy to show up an hour later to “take care of it”.

- msinc

The 4 horsepower Hammer K3 winner 79×48” is $5,390—it is the company’s big saw but not priced at $8,200. In comparison, the SAWSTOP-PCS31230-TGP252 (3 hp, 52”) is $2,999 at Acme Tools. The cheaper of its two wheel sets is $199; the heavier version of its sliding table attachment is $1,459; and the dado cartridge is $89 dollars. I would compare the Powermatic but the company offers no variant of a sliding table. This makes Sawstop the only real alternative to the Hammer and by the time it is said and done, the dollar amount between the two seems close.

For me, it boils down to which is the better unit. I have only owned a Ryobi saw (starter saw), a 1990’s Delta Unisaw, and now a Powermatic PM1000. I have zero experience with a true slider and am concerned about accuracy, the learning curve, the cost of jigs and associated items, maintenance, quality, etc. That is what has caused me to refrain from pulling the pin on the Hammer.

-- Rob

View pintodeluxe's profile

pintodeluxe

5739 posts in 2929 days


#10 posted 01-10-2018 04:02 PM

Safety is most important to me so it’s between Sawstop, and whatever future competitors gets around or buys out their patents.

I’m happy with my 3hp 52” PCS.

-- Willie, Washington "If You Choose Not To Decide, You Still Have Made a Choice" - Rush

View copythat's profile

copythat

150 posts in 721 days


#11 posted 01-10-2018 04:08 PM



Safety is most important to me so it s between Sawstop, and whatever future competitors gets around or buys out their patents.

I m happy with my 3hp 52” PCS.

- pintodeluxe

I thought the sliders were very safe because you clamp your work to the sliding table and that keeps your hands away from the blade and eliminates kick back. Is that not true?

-- Rob

View msinc's profile

msinc

497 posts in 619 days


#12 posted 01-10-2018 04:42 PM

Safety is most important to me so it s between Sawstop, and whatever future competitors gets around or buys out their patents.

I m happy with my 3hp 52” PCS.

- pintodeluxe

I thought the sliders were very safe because you clamp your work to the sliding table and that keeps your hands away from the blade and eliminates kick back. Is that not true?

- copythat

I don’t know that the slider eliminates kick back, but it does get you to the side and it would seem like out of the way, so even if it does you are at least not the direct target. I am all for safety, but I have seen where you can safety yourself right out of a job. Just my opinion, but for me there is a point where for example, if I need a saw that has a $1000.00 feature to shut itself off if I touch the blade and it cost me another blade and an $80.00 “pack” to get it going again…...then maybe I need to re-evaluate my need to do this kind of work.
Again, just my opinion, and someone will now post asking me if my fingers are “important enough to want to keep” ?
Having been someone who for the last 42 years has done “mechanical” type work whether for business or pleasure I subscribe to the old adage, “a mechanical safety is no substitute for good safe practices.” Knock on wood, I have never been “injured” yet and I intend to stay that way. The way I see it having one machine that “lulls” you into not having to be safe is setting you up for a possible accident on another. That aside, $1000.00 will buy me a lot more “capability” in my shop.
Where are you guys buying this Hammer 79” saw for $5300 and change??? The only price I was able to find was the factory at $8195.00

View Steinbierz's profile

Steinbierz

20 posts in 252 days


#13 posted 01-10-2018 04:45 PM

Hello…I just joined this forum yesterday after lurking for several years. It is interesting that this subject and this saw, the Hammer K3 Winner 79×48”, is currently being discussed as this is the exact one that I am considering buying. I am also considering the Sawstop ICS and a PM2000 but, for the cost of an ICS I would rather buy the slider. I look forward to seeing further discussion on this subject.

View AZWoody's profile

AZWoody

1396 posts in 1339 days


#14 posted 01-10-2018 04:53 PM


I am currently in the predicament that I too need a good cabinet/table saw. My take on the Hammer slider thing is that unless you are running a business and/or have money to spend this one should probably be out. The cold, hard fact is that the only way I can justify four times the money just to have the slider is that as a business having to constantly cut large pieces I can eliminate one employee. Instead of two employees at the saw I can do the same thing with one. Beyond that, I just don t see it at my level of use/need. This doesn t even factor in or consider that you have to buy special blades, no doubt four times the money {or more} as well.
All that said, there is not a table saw made I cannot buy today and I seem to have that rare ability {haha!} of being able to convince myself that I will have use for something at some unforeseeable point. My problem is that I also need a dust collection system and I also want that to be a decent one too…I also do have a little bit of a frugal side too, so for what the Hammer slider thing cost I can easily have a decent saw and DCS both.

Edit: I do find it interesting that we kick around the idea that the adjustability and accuracy of equipment at this level is something we need to discuss as if it somehow might fall short. One thing is for certain, if I have to “wonder” about whether or not a saw will cut right then I am considering the wrong saw!!! On the other hand, if I get a new $8200 plus saw home and find I need to adjust a fence or set the kerf I am just going to go ahead and do it and move on with life, I am not going to cry, call the factory and expect some lab coat guy to show up an hour later to “take care of it”.

- msinc

The 4 horsepower Hammer K3 winner 79×48” is $5,390—it is the company s big saw but not priced at $8,200. In comparison, the SAWSTOP-PCS31230-TGP252 (3 hp, 52”) is $2,999 at Acme Tools. The cheaper of its two wheel sets is $199; the heavier version of its sliding table attachment is $1,459; and the dado cartridge is $89 dollars. I would compare the Powermatic but the company offers no variant of a sliding table. This makes Sawstop the only real alternative to the Hammer and by the time it is said and done, the dollar amount between the two seems close.

For me, it boils down to which is the better unit. I have only owned a Ryobi saw (starter saw), a 1990 s Delta Unisaw, and now a Powermatic PM1000. I have zero experience with a true slider and am concerned about accuracy, the learning curve, the cost of jigs and associated items, maintenance, quality, etc. That is what has caused me to refrain from pulling the pin on the Hammer.

- copythat

I have a Grizzly slider and having looked at the slider attachments of the sawstop, I think you really can’t compare the 2.
The sawstop being an attachment has the slider too far away from the blade if you’re watching to do straightline ripping of narrower pieces. I use mine a lot for that purpose. Also, you will have to compare the total stroke you can get from it versus the K3

Before I bought the slider, I looked hard at the Sawstop with their older slider attachment but in the end felt it’s better to get a saw designed from the ground up as a slider rather than buying a saw that has the slider as an afterthought.

View copythat's profile

copythat

150 posts in 721 days


#15 posted 01-10-2018 04:54 PM



I don t know that the slider eliminates kick back, but it does get you to the side and it would seem like out of the way, so even if it does you are at least not the direct target. I am all for safety, but I have seen where you can safety yourself right out of a job. Just my opinion, but for me there is a point where for example, if I need a saw that has a $1000.00 feature to shut itself off if I touch the blade and it cost me another blade and an $80.00 “pack” to get it going again…...then maybe I need to re-evaluate my need to do this kind of work.
Again, just my opinion, and someone will now post asking me if my fingers are “important enough to want to keep” ?
Having been someone who for the last 42 years has done “mechanical” type work whether for business or pleasure I subscribe to the old adage, “a mechanical safety is no substitute for good safe practices.” Knock on wood, I have never been “injured” yet and I intend to stay that way. The way I see it having one machine that “lulls” you into not having to be safe is setting you up for a possible accident on another. That aside, $1000.00 will buy me a lot more “capability” in my shop.
Where are you guys buying this Hammer 79” saw for $5300 and change??? The only price I was able to find was the factory at $8195.00

- msinc

The price I found was here: http://us.feldershop.com/en-US/en-US/en-US/Sawing/Machines/Hammer-K3-winner-79x48.html

-- Rob

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