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Forum topic by Eddycreek posted 01-01-2018 05:28 PM 852 views 1 time favorited 27 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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Eddycreek

6 posts in 168 days


01-01-2018 05:28 PM

Topic tags/keywords: dust collector shop question

I started woodworking on a shoestring budget as a hobby right out of high school about 40 years ago, and now that I’m nearing retirement would like to get back into it. I’m putting a 16×36 shop in one side of a barn, and looking at dust collection systems. I’m pouring a concrete floor with radiant heat, will have a small window unit for ac in the summer, and enough insulation to keep it 65-75 year round. I’ve installed 4” pvc under the slab to get suction to all the equipment, now trying to figure out which D.C. system to get. My thought was to have a 4 or 5×10 closet without a door at one end where the breaker box and heating components would be, and put the D.C. in there to cut down on noise. I’ll have table saw, radial arm saw, planer, jointer, miter saw, band saw, belt/disc sander, drill press, router, and various other dust/chip creators to hook up, but just 1 at a time. I could easily vent the dust outside, but afraid my heat or cooling would go with it. A remote would need to work through the closet wall. I’ve done quite a bit of googling for info, and now looking for suggestions from experienced users.


27 replies so far

View a1Jim's profile

a1Jim

117115 posts in 3600 days


#1 posted 01-01-2018 05:47 PM

Hi Welcome to Ljs Eddy

There are many many options for dust collect, you have taken one approach that I have used in my own shop is installing ducting under your floor. One thing that can get you in trouble in doing that is if you make tight turns for your collection creating clogs, so it is best for your underfloor collect to have straight shots to tools that put out a lot of chips and sawdust-like thickness planners, drum sanders, table saws. I made that mistake and my underfloor DC collection I made in floor chaces to also put air and electrical. this meant I could put wider sweeps for the DC ducting not to clog. Another thing I did was to set up many units some big vacuums for things like my router tables and 4 harbor freight units to eliminate taking up ceiling space with expensive ducting. I bought all of my HF units on sale so total investment for all four was under $500 less than most higher end units ,I also ran 3 of the 4 units outside to save floor space and noise

-- https://www.artisticwoodstudio.com/videos wood crafting & woodworking classes

View Mike_D_S's profile

Mike_D_S

478 posts in 2237 days


#2 posted 01-01-2018 06:13 PM

Eddycreek,

I don’t have a suggestion on a specific collector. But since you essentially already know your ducting system, you should do the math on the static pressure losses to make sure you limit your choices to those which can definitely provide the necessary CFM for the longest runs and those with the most direction changes.

Since you’ve already got the 4” PVC in the floor, I’d suggest going through the duct design process to figure out your collector size needs. Since you won’t be able to resize or change the layout of your ducting, you’ll have to adjust the collector size to fit.

Do you have a picture of the layout for the 4” piping in the floor? We can work from that to get an idea of the losses in the ducting which can help to get a first idea of the size of collector you’ll need.

Mike

-- No honey, that's not new, I've had that forever......

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Eddycreek

6 posts in 168 days


#3 posted 01-01-2018 07:17 PM

Don’t have a good pic, but basically floor plan is like this. Picture 16’ wide and 36’ deep. 5’ double door at lower right in 16’ end, 5×10 closet area left of that where dc would go. All the dividers or stub ups are either a Y or 2-45 elbows with a foot straight piece between. One run down the middle with 3 stub ups for table saw, work station, and band saw at end wall. One run Ys off to the right wall for the planer and jointer. Will have another run on the left wall that will be under the work bench/tables running the length of that wall. Radial saw, miter saw, etc. will be on that wall. Will have blast gates for each piece. Figured static pressure loss at about 5.

View Mike_D_S's profile

Mike_D_S

478 posts in 2237 days


#4 posted 01-01-2018 09:49 PM

I get about 4.5 inches for the ducting from the DC to the stub up. So add another 1.3 for 6’ of flex hose, then another 1 for hood losses at the machine.

So call the duct system losses 7” then add one more for a dirty filter, so I’d be looking for a machine that can do 450CFM at 8” of SP.

Looking around, you’re in the range for a good 2 HP cyclone setup.

Mike

-- No honey, that's not new, I've had that forever......

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Eddycreek

6 posts in 168 days


#5 posted 01-01-2018 10:04 PM

Thanks for the reply. So I guess my question is what is a good 2hp cyclone setup? I was looking in the 1.5-2hp range, but since I have 0 experience with any system, looking for what works best for situations like mine based on experience. Reviews on specific setups are all over the map. See some with 30 micron filters, some with 2 micron, some with hepa.

View Mike_D_S's profile

Mike_D_S

478 posts in 2237 days


#6 posted 01-01-2018 11:02 PM

Well, I don’t have any of these personally, so I can’t give direct experience. My short list would be:

Oneida V-2000 $1759 base (closer to $2200 with accessories like the stand, remote, etc). HEPA, fits under an 8’ ceiling, probably the most reliable of the performance ratings.

Laguna C-Flux 2 $1599 (often on sale for 10% off). Good filtering, but not at the same level as the Oneida. Might be a little over-rated on the CFMs, but even down rated some it still works for you. Price includes mobile base, remote and a few other nice features.

Laguna P-Flux 2 $2199 (often on sale for 10% off). HEPA filter, as with the CFlux, might be a little over rated on CFMs, but still should be plenty. Comes with auto filter cleaner, remote, mobile base, etc. Supposedly relatively quieter?

Grizzly G0440 $1395 base ($1700 with the stand). Good filtering, but not HEPA. Comes with remote, but taller than the other options, so not 8’ ceiling friendly.

Grizzly G0440HEP $1925 ($2225 with the stand). HEPA filer, comes with remote, but tall.

ClearVue CV-1800 $1755 (about $2000 with the wall hanger, dust bin and remote). Not HEPA rated, but HEPA like filtering. 5HP single phase motor, so high amperage. Also need taller ceilings.

I have to work in a short ceiling and don’t have space for a closet to put it in, so I’d be looking at the Oneida or one of the Lagunas. With higher ceilings and a closet, I would probably be looking hard at the G0440 with a plan to use some higher end AC filters built into the wall of the closet to bring the filtering up and provide the return path for air back into the shop.

Hopefully you’ll get some input from some people with actual experience with some of these collectors.

Mike

-- No honey, that's not new, I've had that forever......

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a1Jim

117115 posts in 3600 days


#7 posted 01-01-2018 11:27 PM

When I first started in woodworking I bought an Oneida DC unit but I moved and thought ok I’ll buy a HF unit for now and change it out later,the HF unit is only $180 after using their 20% coupon you don’t have much to lose giving one a try and then go from there.

https://www.harborfreight.com/70-gal-2-hp-industrial-dust-collector-61790.html

-- https://www.artisticwoodstudio.com/videos wood crafting & woodworking classes

View Mike_D_S's profile

Mike_D_S

478 posts in 2237 days


#8 posted 01-02-2018 02:56 AM

I like the HF DC and I have one I still use when I need to put machines out on the driveway. But I’ve done quite a bit of work and some testing with mine and I can say it’s not capable of moving adequate air through the ducting setup that Eddy has.

The HF unit is a great unit for what it is, but it doesn’t deliver purpose designed 2HP performance without significant work. On a 10 ft flex hose it’ll work for just about normal hobbyist machine, but not great for larger ducted systems.

To get to equivalent performance for a ducted system, you’d be looking at:
HF collecter – $180
Rikon impeller – $150
Filter upgrade – $200
SDD Cyclone – $165

So you’d be looking at $700 ish to take the HF unit to comparable cyclone system. Which is still cheaper than most of the ones I listed above. Adding a remote, dust bin, new frame and your time and I’m guessing your at $1000 to get the HF to an apples to apples comparison level.

I’m normally a fan of taking the budget option, but since his ducting is in the concrete, I wouldn’t want to take a risk of plugging the buried lines with less than adequate air flow.

Mike

-- No honey, that's not new, I've had that forever......

View Carl10's profile

Carl10

103 posts in 479 days


#9 posted 01-02-2018 05:59 PM

Eddy,

Have you poured concrete yet? If not, do not use 4” PVC. The few bucks you save on the material cost now will cost hundreds more in a larger cyclone and in performance. Although Mike did some nice work providing your loses with 4” ductwork, it did not include the loss for the cyclone itself, which can add another 2-3 inches of loss. If you look at the V2000 graph you will see it starts at 2” for the highest airflow, the grizzly starts at 2.5”. So you need to add your 8” to that number, which is 10”+ of static pressure. Not many units perform above 10” and if they do, will provide very little airflow. This means you need to go to at least a 3HP or probably a 5HP unit to get sufficient airflow at that high static pressure level. Also, the curves are based on the units input diameter usually 6-7” for those sized units.

If you look at the example Oneida provides it is almost identical to your situation.
https://www.oneida-air.com/static.asp?htmltemplate=static/ductwork_tutorial01.html

Also, 450CFM collection at a tool is generally thought to be the minimum for chip collection and can not catch the finer dust. Moving toward 800 CFM+ is a better target. (Of course improving tool collection is also important)

The flip side, is if you have poured the concrete you can always run larger duct above ground and not use the 4”

Hope this helps, let us know what you do.

Carl

View a1Jim's profile

a1Jim

117115 posts in 3600 days


#10 posted 01-02-2018 06:40 PM



Hi Welcome to Ljs Eddy

There are many many options for dust collect, you have taken one approach that I have used in my own shop is installing ducting under your floor. One thing that can get you in trouble in doing that is if you make tight turns for your collection creating clogs, so it is best for your underfloor collect to have straight shots to tools that put out a lot of chips and sawdust-like thickness planners, drum sanders, table saws. I made that mistake and my underfloor DC collection I made in floor chases to also put air and electrical. this meant I could put wider sweeps for the DC ducting not to clog. Another thing I did was to set up many units some big vacuums for things like my router tables and 4 harbor freight units to eliminate taking up ceiling space with expensive ducting. I bought all of my HF units on sale so total investment for all four was under $500 less than most higher end units ,I also ran 3 of the 4 units outside to save floor space and noise

- a1Jim


My suggestion is to bypass all that spendy ducting all together and use several units. If this is not built yet and you’re still going with floor dust collection I would strongly suggest you put chases in your floor, not to poor your ducting in the floor ,these can be used for air and electrical runs also and you will have access to all that for future modifications, another point instead of two 45 elbows use long sweep elbows and make sure your chases are wide enough at those turns.As a 30 year contractor, I formed my chases in the floor with 2×8 PT material set down a 1/4” poured then 1/4 steel plates screwed on top. strong enough to take any heavy equipment over.

-- https://www.artisticwoodstudio.com/videos wood crafting & woodworking classes

View Mike_D_S's profile

Mike_D_S

478 posts in 2237 days


#11 posted 01-02-2018 07:10 PM

I was working off of Eddy’s original posting that he had installed the 4” already. But if the slab is not poured yet, then chases as suggested by Jim are the way to go. Allows access to the piping, provides additional space for other runs as noted (power, air, etc) and if large enough would allow up sizing the ducting if you decide to go bigger later.

Mike

-- No honey, that's not new, I've had that forever......

View a1Jim's profile

a1Jim

117115 posts in 3600 days


#12 posted 01-02-2018 07:38 PM

Mike my comments were not directed at you I think you offered very good advice based on Eddy’s base ideas.
We all offer our own ideas given any individuals questions, that’s forums are all about throwing ideas around , then it’s up to the original person who posted what will work for them.

-- https://www.artisticwoodstudio.com/videos wood crafting & woodworking classes

View Mike_D_S's profile

Mike_D_S

478 posts in 2237 days


#13 posted 01-02-2018 08:16 PM

Jim,

Appreciate the follow up. I didn’t think you were directing to me either actually. What I realized is that I’ve been working from the position of that Eddy has his slab poured and the 4” PVC is now a fixed item. But re-reading the original post it’s not obvious that he’s actually that far in yet which is where you’re coming from.

I didn’t word it as a question, but what I was trying to get to above was for Eddy to tell us where he really is on the build.

If the 4” PVC is cemented in, then that leads to one set of options. If he hasn’t poured the slabs then I really do think the chases are a good answer as they provide the best long term flexibility for access and utility.

And I totally agree with you friendly debate is what makes a forum like this good. But when a better answer is given, I have no issue climbing into that boat, so your just gonna have to move over and make room.

Mike

-- No honey, that's not new, I've had that forever......

View Manitario's profile

Manitario

2630 posts in 2906 days


#14 posted 01-02-2018 08:26 PM

Hey guys, I’m not sure what static pressure calculator you’re using, but plugging in your numbers into one of the simple online SP calculators put you at 16” WC for a simple 20ft run of 4” duct with one 90deg turn. So unless you’re planning on a 10HP cyclone unit, you’re going to get negligible CFM from most commercial DC if you use 4” ducting.
Using 6” duct for comparison would only put you at 4”WC static pressure….

-- Sometimes the creative process requires foul language. -- Charles Neil

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Andre

1868 posts in 1829 days


#15 posted 01-02-2018 08:50 PM

Did my system 1.5 hp General rated at 1250 cfm all in 4” thin wall PVC, 2 legs, 1 piped overhead(on the ceiling) to Veritas separator off the Table Saw and Planer/jointer(12”) and one open to Lathe and future expansion. Had to put baffles into heavy duty garbage can on the seperator to prevent it from being collapsed? I measure airflow not WC, and what an open 4” hose will suck off the floor! 3” x 3” by 1” thick Oak scrap made a big bang and bent impeller blade! More than enough suction for me! On a side note, just changed the flex hose from impeller to filter to metal ducting and without measuring do believe increased suction slightly? Use as little flex hose as possible!

-- Lifting one end of the plank.

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