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Walkthrough with electrician tomorrow. Thoughts on wiring plan?

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Forum topic by bobspryn posted 12-22-2017 02:07 AM 1992 views 0 times favorited 28 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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bobspryn

15 posts in 378 days


12-22-2017 02:07 AM

Topic tags/keywords: electric outlets wiring

Here is my initial take on wiring for my new shop space. Would welcome any thoughts. I think I have lighting figured out, so this is mainly about wiring.

Are floor outlets definitely a good way to go in cement in a garage? It’s not a huge space, but I worry a tiny bit about reconfiguration putting outlets right in a walking path.

20A circuits to a new subpanel. Do I need to specify wiring gauge? 12 gauge good? Do I need 10 for 220V? Also thinking of having them run dual circuits to each 110V so I can run two heavy things right next to each other. (Shop vac being the main one I would imagine.)

My initial idea of a possible layout below as well.



-- Bob Spryn


28 replies so far

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bobspryn

15 posts in 378 days


#1 posted 12-22-2017 02:10 AM

I suppose flooring is something to consider with any outlets added in the floor. I was thinking of doing an epoxy floor at some point. I imagine that would probably be ok, but anything that raises the floor up a bit would potentially cause an issue with ground outlets.

-- Bob Spryn

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johnstoneb

3064 posts in 2378 days


#2 posted 12-22-2017 02:12 AM

No on the floor outlets. Put in some ceiling outlets. 10 is about right on 240 or more. I put in 3 and right now if I had four I would use it.

-- Bruce, Boise, ID

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Knockonit

477 posts in 407 days


#3 posted 12-22-2017 02:16 AM

well, when i moved my shop to house, i rewired the garage, put double duplexes everywhere, put a total of 5 20 am circuits in, each double had two circuits, while one does not usually use that much power at one time, i decided if my generators can run five to 6 skil saws, and a compressor, then by golly i should be able to in my garage.

in teh summer it will work, as i’ll be using fans a couple coolers to keep me self cool, and lotsa hand tools.

just because its wired for it, doesn’t mean you’ll use it, but when you do, well there you have it.

i did a couple 220v outlets with multiple types of plugs, my welders have different than table saw and the stand alone compressor, I made almost all the big stuff plug in, so in case i decided i wanted to re arrange things.

good luck, lotsa fun coming up, putting together a flow pattern helps to determine locations.
merry christmas
Rj in az

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John Smith

1491 posts in 368 days


#4 posted 12-22-2017 02:17 AM

your electrician . . . is this just a local electrical contractor?? or the actual code inspector.

good layout – but this is where you should have purchased a recent NEC book.
(NEC = National Electrical Code).
then- visited your local building, planning and permit office in person for a copy of THEIR requirements.
there are specific codes for putting conduit and wiring in a concrete floor. and put a LOT of thought into placement.
once it is sealed up it is there for all of eternity.
and you said: I worry a tiny bit about reconfiguration putting outlets right in a walking path.
which is a valid concern. a floor outlet out in the open is fine until you plug something into it.
then it quickly becomes a trip hazard.
so floor outlets should be limited to be very close to stationary equipment, work benches, etc.
codes are written to encompass the likely hood of several people in that space at one time. (not always just you).
example: you may have a party or weekend work session in that little shop some day
and increases the possibility of someone getting hurt.

I just moved to a new city and applied for a building permit only to find that this city
has their OWN codes along with Florida’s codes along with the National Codes.
a simple job quickly turned into a big headache. not to mention the COST for the permits.

good luck with your inspection – please let us know how it turned out.

-- I started out with nothing in life ~ and still have most of it left.

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bobspryn

15 posts in 378 days


#5 posted 12-22-2017 02:37 AM



No on the floor outlets. Put in some ceiling outlets. 10 is about right on 240 or more. I put in 3 and right now if I had four I would use it.

- johnstoneb

Don’t quite follow. 10 is about right on 240 or more? Meaning 10 240 outlets? I have 4 marked (red – two of them in floor).

-- Bob Spryn

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bobspryn

15 posts in 378 days


#6 posted 12-22-2017 02:42 AM



your electrician . . . is this just a local electrical contractor?? or the actual code inspector.

good layout – but this is where you should have purchased a recent NEC book.
(NEC = National Electrical Code).
then- visited your local building, planning and permit office in person for a copy of THEIR requirements.
there are specific codes for putting conduit and wiring in a concrete floor. and put a LOT of thought into placement.
once it is sealed up it is there for all of eternity.
and you said: I worry a tiny bit about reconfiguration putting outlets right in a walking path.
which is a valid concern. a floor outlet out in the open is fine until you plug something into it.
then it quickly becomes a trip hazard.
so floor outlets should be limited to be very close to stationary equipment, work benches, etc.
codes are written to encompass the likely hood of several people in that space at one time. (not always just you).
example: you may have a party or weekend work session in that little shop some day
and increases the possibility of someone getting hurt.

I just moved to a new city and applied for a building permit only to find that this city
has their OWN codes along with Florida s codes along with the National Codes.
a simple job quickly turned into a big headache. not to mention the COST for the permits.

good luck with your inspection – please let us know how it turned out.

- John Smith

Good thoughts. Wouldn’t have known to do that I guess. You have me on the fence about floor outlets, along with the other poster. Although, it’s a small enough space that the chances of having a wide open path in the middle area there at any time are pretty small. I guess worst case scenario, I don’t use that plug. Or I could go 220V outlets in the ceiling as well, but then you’ve got cords hanging down to power big machines.

Wondering if I should add more 220V outlets to the surrounding wall. It would be fairly easy for me to run new outlets in the ceiling later, harder for wall (would have to be conduit).

So the double circuits to the quad 110V outlets around the wall isn’t overkill then? Maybe I should do that in the ceiling ones too?

-- Bob Spryn

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John Smith

1491 posts in 368 days


#7 posted 12-22-2017 04:07 AM

10 gauge wire to 220/240v outlets on a single dedicated breaker. (usually 50amp).
I have been in 5 lightning related scenarios. and when I see electrical cords hanging
from the ceiling, I get the heebie-jeebies like you would not believe.
lightning LOVES electrical wires that go up and down.

DISCLAIMER: just be advised that YOU have the sole responsibility to know, understand and follow
all codes and regulations and have all safety procedures in place prior to operation.
any information or suggestions derived from this forum is strictly for example purposes only.
it is up to you to know the electrical and building codes for your particular applications.

for example: if you have an electrical cord hanging from the ceiling, and it does not meet code,
and it attracts lightning into your shop and destroys a bunch of stuff and starts fires and stuff,
your insurance carrier may not cover the damage. if your workshop is connected to your home,
like a converted garage, and your house burns down from non-code additions, your home may
be a total loss and all repairs will come out of your pocket. try to explain THAT to your wife !!!!

-- I started out with nothing in life ~ and still have most of it left.

View sawdustdad's profile

sawdustdad

366 posts in 1090 days


#8 posted 12-22-2017 04:12 AM

Wire gauge is determined by the amperage of the breaker, not the voltage. You definitely need an electrician to help you with this job!

I recently wired my new shop. I would not run two separate circuits to the same box, but you can alternate outlets on the two circuits down the length of the wall. I’d be concerned that someone else in the future would open the breaker to the box not realizing that there were actually two breakers. I guess you could tie them together in the panel, but then, the new owner would be looking for a 240 volt outlet to match that breaker. So, bad idea I think.

Run outlets in the ceiling. I had some floor outlets in my last shop and it allowed me to build an “island” of tools around the outlets. In my new shop, they are all in the ceiling. My thought was I need to run dust collection anyway from the ceiling, so the cords from the ceiling outlets run down with the dust collection ducting. If the outlets in the ceiling are in the wrong spot (due to moving tools) it’s easier to run across the ceiling than across the floor…

-- Murphy's Carpentry Corollary #3: Half of all boards cut to a specific length will be too short.

View bobspryn's profile

bobspryn

15 posts in 378 days


#9 posted 12-22-2017 04:25 AM

Ok, great thoughts.

To be clear, I’m definitely having an electrician do this. The walkthrough is to explain to him where I want everything.

I’m thinking of sticking with floor outlets for a tool island, but will also have ceiling outlets. I figure worst case scenario, I don’t use the floor outlets. Right?

I’ll start with two overhead 110s, keep the 220s on the floor and in the wall. Maybe I should add more 220s around the wall than the two I’ve planned.

I’ll consider just alternating circuits on each outlet instead of per box. I suppose at 4’, they aren’t that far apart if I need to plug two things in. Though they may be occupied, or hidden behind a miter saw station.

-- Bob Spryn

View gmc's profile

gmc

59 posts in 2362 days


#10 posted 12-22-2017 03:36 PM

My issue with floor outlets was the amount of care you had to take in keeping sawdust and water out of them. Even the cleanest of shops get dirty for a period of time and the dust looks for the lowest spot on the floor. Inevitably you spill something and you hope is not near the outlets. While they are great when they are placed exactly where needed they leave no room for compromise. Good luck hope everything works out for your new space.

-- Gary, Central Illinois

View Redoak49's profile

Redoak49

3671 posts in 2194 days


#11 posted 12-22-2017 04:21 PM

Of course more circuits is always better.

I recently had an addition done and took a lot of time on electrical. Make certain that you have everything written out on what you are getting and where it is going. It makes things easier. On my job they failed to do somethings as was agreed and was no effort to show them the plan and get it corrected. As I learned at work…”verbal orders do not go”..everything in writing.

Matt also want to consider Ethernet and cable if you have any future need.

View William Shelley's profile

William Shelley

595 posts in 1675 days


#12 posted 12-22-2017 05:41 PM



10 gauge wire to 220/240v outlets on a single dedicated breaker. (usually 50amp).
I have been in 5 lightning related scenarios. and when I see electrical cords hanging
from the ceiling, I get the heebie-jeebies like you would not believe.
lightning LOVES electrical wires that go up and down.

DISCLAIMER: just be advised that YOU have the sole responsibility to know, understand and follow
all codes and regulations and have all safety procedures in place prior to operation.
any information or suggestions derived from this forum is strictly for example purposes only.
it is up to you to know the electrical and building codes for your particular applications.

for example: if you have an electrical cord hanging from the ceiling, and it does not meet code,
and it attracts lightning into your shop and destroys a bunch of stuff and starts fires and stuff,
your insurance carrier may not cover the damage. if your workshop is connected to your home,
like a converted garage, and your house burns down from non-code additions, your home may
be a total loss and all repairs will come out of your pocket. try to explain THAT to your wife !!!!

- John Smith

10awg wire must be on a 30A breaker or smaller. A 50A breaker will not protect 10awg wire before it heats up and catches something on fire.

-- Woodworking from an engineer's perspective

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John Smith

1491 posts in 368 days


#13 posted 12-22-2017 06:13 PM

I have 2 220v outlets with 10awg wire on 50 amp breakers.
inspected and approved by a licensed home inspector as well
as the local city code inspector when I bought this house.
I agree – it should be 8 ga wire for 50 amps but it was passed
by the powers that be (Florida) and I’m not changing it.
the previous home owner had a TIG welder outlet on the back patio
and his RV outlet on the side of the house.
that is what I am referring to in my circumstance.

that is why I strongly suggest everyone doing household modifications to consult
with their local code enforcement officials and the NEC book before proceeding into unknown territory.

.

-- I started out with nothing in life ~ and still have most of it left.

View Gilley23's profile

Gilley23

489 posts in 587 days


#14 posted 12-22-2017 06:17 PM

Ok, if you really want to cover yourself for the future, have him pull a 10-3 to all of your outlets. That will give you (2) dedicated 120v circuits in each outlet right now and in the future you can change it over to a 220, up to 30a. Make sure that he breakers them all on 20a breakers and installs 20a receptacles.

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Gilley23

489 posts in 587 days


#15 posted 12-22-2017 06:21 PM

Don’t listen to any of this talk about “so and so did this” and “I heard that you can do that” or “I got away with this in my house” bs. I don’t get into any of the electrical discussions here because when it comes to electrical, suddenly everyone here is an expert and quite often times gives COMPLETELY incorrect information.

Listen to your electrical contractor and have it inspected. No inspection + fire = no insurance claim for you.

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