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| Forum topic by Tony | posted 139 days ago | 860 views | 2 times favorited | 44 replies | ![]() |
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139 days ago |
This is the latest offering from Fine woodworking. I have a few customers who really like this bed, but they think it is too expensive. I am estimating around about 150 hours of work and the material cost is about $650 (either Walnut or Mahogany), including Oil, waxs, stain, sandpaper and hardware (purchase and trasportation of the lumber). So to anybody who has read the article Do you think that 150 Hours of work (total) is a fair estimate? What price tag would you place on this bed (without the matress)? I am doing this, or least trying to do this for a living (full time) The price should be based on the work in your area/country (no currency conversion please) I’ll tell you all in a few days what I was going to charge and it was rejected as too expensive! Thank you LJs Ps Some of the dimesions are wrong in the magaizine, I am just recalculation them at the moment -- Tony - All things are possible, just some things are more difficult than others! - SKYPE: Heron2005 (http://www.poydatjatuolit.fi) |
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139 days ago |
I would figure 120 hours and about $4250 USD. 3 weeks at 40/week. But that’s just a guess. I don’t woodwork for a living. -- Gary, East TX -- The longest journey begins with a single step. |
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139 days ago |
I read this article and the most time consuming part of the construction would be making the “X slats”. I might estimate about 100 hours. In my area this bed made of walnut or cherry, I would estimate about $3500-3800. -- Tim -- http://tmuli.com |
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139 days ago |
That’s a beautiful bed, I think you’re in the ball park with your estimate, but I’ll leave that to the pros. -- Dick Cain, Hibbing, MN. http://www.woodcarvingillustrated.com/gallery/member.php?uid=3627&protype=1 |
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139 days ago |
Tony: I think I see two sets of 14 pieces with double tenons. You could short cut them with a full mortice and block the spaces with precut fillers. I’m sure not a pro by any means so I am really not sure what to allow for the actual bed frame. Tony, You might be wise to run a prototype on this new project to be sure of your time and technique of choice. Bob -- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner |
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139 days ago |
i think somewhere from 3700 – 4000. if it took you around 150 hours you should get some pretty good pay. |
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139 days ago |
If you are going to spend 150 hours on the project then you should be charging in the $6500 to $7000 range. That lets you net between 20 and 25 per hour, which I doubt seriously that you will get rich working at this rate. I know of very few people who would be willing to pay this for a bed. -- With God's help all things are possible- even woodworking. Woodworking is not just a hobby, it is an (expletive deleted) expensive hobby. |
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139 days ago |
The last time I bought a mattress we paid about fifteen hundred for it, but the time before that we paid quite a bit more, and were looking at mattresses that ran from about thirty five hundred clear to twelve thousand dollars. I don’t think there’s anything at all out of line in asking someone for eight to twelve thousand bucks for a bed if they’re going to put a mattress that costs that much on top of it, especially since decent bedding could easily run another seven hundred to a thousand bucks (what does a good Egyptian cotton duvet cover run?). It’d have to be a piece they were in love with, but I don’t see how you could make money at it for less; as a business you not only have to cover your time, you also have to cover your capital investments. -- Dan Lyke, Lagunitas California, http://www.flutterby.net/User:DanLyke |
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139 days ago |
I have built a ton of furniture over the past 35 years and I can tell you from experience that you never get what you think your labor costs are worth. 120-150 hours of labor is a good estimate for the bed frame project. There will be a lot of finish work involved in this piece. If I was selling it I would ask a minimum of $4200 for it—-more depending on the wood used. Most folks will tell you that they can go to a furniture store and get it cheaper and I tell them to head on over and really look to see if they are getting solid wood or glued together sawdust. -- Genius is immediate, but talent takes time. |
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139 days ago |
I didn’t read the article, but at first glance my first thought was $2,800 USD just for the bed. But then, what do I know? |
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139 days ago |
Obi – Is your sprinkler system up an running yet – no news on the planes! -- Tony - All things are possible, just some things are more difficult than others! - SKYPE: Heron2005 (http://www.poydatjatuolit.fi) |
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139 days ago |
150 hours sounds like a good starting point. The problem is you skill level, tools avalable & how much time it takes you to set up & make any jigs, if needed. only you can decide if it sounds right. & only experience will tell you how good you are at estimating. |
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139 days ago |
Here’s a link to a gallery here in Seattle that sells handcrafted furniture. From looking at their prices I’d say that bed would go for $4,000 to $5,000. Dorje and I are going to be stopping by there tonight. I’ll get a good look at what the quality is like, but it looks topnotch. -- Mike - "Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing which ones to keep." (Scott Adams) |
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139 days ago |
150 hours sounds good.. I would want to make more than one at a time to better utilize my set up time. -- making sawdust.... |
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139 days ago |
I figure 95 build hours, 25 hours in finish, if material cost 650.00=====total cost 9300.00 -- Les, Wichita, Ks. (I'd rather be covered in saw dust!) |
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139 days ago |
Looking at all of these estimates, you have to consider the amount of overhead each one is working with. Some have less than others. If you’re making furniture professionally, then you should already know what you have to make to show a profit. -- Tim -- http://tmuli.com |
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139 days ago |
I’d bet even lower. 72 hours X 35.00 + 650.00 = 3200.00. That is with a sprayed on finish. |
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138 days ago |
Everybody has different overheads, it is really the estimated hours I am looking for. The selling price obviously depends upont the hourly rate. For example if I was living in London the hourly rate would pobably have to be about $60/hour (where the cost of living is exteemly high), whilst living in the North East of England it may only be 20$/hour (lower cost of living). At the end of the day, any piece of furniture is only worth what somebody else is willing to pay for it. I do this for a full time occupation, but estimating costs can be a little difficult sometimes – hence the plee for feedback. Obviously I could make the bed for cost of materials only, but, I do have to make some money to pay this bills, so I have got to get it correct. I also have a very small market in which to sell. I am not in this proffession to make a fortune, the best woodworker in the world could not make a fortune here selling custom built pieces, but it does keep me busy and happy, what more could you ask for (any Finnish marketing people reading this thread – I need your help). So please keep those estimated hours comming – this bed, as with nearly all my furniture will be hand finished, no spraying allowed for fine furniture (my rule) – Thanks to all so far -- Tony - All things are possible, just some things are more difficult than others! - SKYPE: Heron2005 (http://www.poydatjatuolit.fi) |
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138 days ago |
By my formula the price would be $9957. That’s at 150 hours at $40/hour and 30% profit. So I agree with Les’s $9000 range. -- Thos. Angle, Owyhee Design, Oregon |
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138 days ago |
Tony, I just looked at the other thread on priceing. I like Bob2’s idea with the CNC custom shop doing the slats on the bed. That would sure bring the price down. -- Thos. Angle, Owyhee Design, Oregon |
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138 days ago |
Thos, If I were going into production on these items I would agree – CNC is the way to go, but as I usually make unique different pieces every time, I cannot justify the cost of a CNC or the space. The other thing is, I am a trying to sell unique hand made furniture, not mass produced – otherwise I would join a bigger company and do that and get NO satisfaction in my work, but thanks for the feedback any way.. -- Tony - All things are possible, just some things are more difficult than others! - SKYPE: Heron2005 (http://www.poydatjatuolit.fi) |
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138 days ago |
Sam Maloof is asking and apparently getting $40,000.00 for his famous rocking chair. Tony , charge what it is worth to you and let the customers sort themselves out. Cheers -- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner |
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138 days ago |
If and when I get as famous as Mr. Maloof, I will let my customers fight over me, but at the present time, Just starting up the business – I am fighting for customers. Bob, If you find a customer who is willing to pay 20K for the bed, I give you 10K comission (cash in the hand), I’ll even fly over and give the $bills my self. -- Tony - All things are possible, just some things are more difficult than others! - SKYPE: Heron2005 (http://www.poydatjatuolit.fi) |
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138 days ago |
I know what you mean Tony. In order to make a rabbit stew, you must first catch a rabbit. <g> Just do what you can do and let your name get out there. Good luck Bob -- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner |
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138 days ago |
Hmmmm, interesting thread so far. Seems like some are basing the price more on the customers abilty to pay than value of the piece. I read FWW article on this bed, hours to complete this obviously depends alot on the skill and experince of the craftsman. I don’t have much experience at pricing my work but I would say agree on the price before hand then hopefully you will both be happy enough to do some future buisness. When you get as famous as Sam I’ll say I knew when you were a meager lumberjock. -- DocK, WV |
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138 days ago |
You said you could make one bed with 150 hours of work. What if you made two at the same time? Maybe 200 or 250 hours? Certainly not 300. What about doing three or four? If you can line up enough customers for the same item, then you can take advantage of the economies of scale. -- Scott, San Diego |
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138 days ago |
Swied I do not know if it will take 150 hours or not, hence the question ”Do you think that 150 Hours of work (total) is a fair estimate?” I am trying to link a couple more customers together at the moment for this project. But you must remember we only have avery small population here and the salaries are quite low in comparision to other countries – If I could sell 2 of these beds a year I would think myself lucky, so to make 4 at the same time, the profit margin goes up, but the material costs would be about $2500 – that is a lot of monet to have tied up in a product which would be more difficult to sell than others. I recalculated the time today and stiill came up with the same answer about 150 hours for one, but for the second and subsiquent beds, made at the same time, I recconed on an additional 80 to 100 hours – It is all hand worked – Unfortunately I do not have the space to make more than two or three at the same time. Thanks for the constructive comment -- Tony - All things are possible, just some things are more difficult than others! - SKYPE: Heron2005 (http://www.poydatjatuolit.fi) |
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138 days ago |
here’s my 2 cents… If your wanting to sell peices on a hourly price then I would invest in a stop clock to keep track of your actual work time in the future.. I.E. stop for a smoke stop the clock… stop to talk to wife/friend/etc stop the clock. I would keep a notebook with daily work time for the project etc. You could keep seperate times for planing, designing, problemsolving, etc or even price finishing different from building. Little breaks make a big difference in the end, alot more then you think, and if you want to price on an hourly basis that would make your pricing alot more accurate. This would also give you a detailed work schedule that you could show customers that breaks down actual times and $ value. Another thing. It sounds like you get the idea of selling your high end handmade quality. When your making and selling peices with price tags like these the customer has to understand what all goes into making a fine peice of furniture like this. I bet you would be suprised how many customers dont understand the reasoning behind the methods used in fine furniture vs mass produced methods. I.E. “All of these joints are mortise and tenon. That means the 2 peices of solid wood are actually imbeded into each other making the strongest joint possible.” thats just an example, but you could build onto that subject and go into other methods that make the bed a quality peice. If someone doesnt understand the differences in your bed and a bed at wal-mart, what justifys them to spend the extra money? knowledge makes them feel more comfortable, then that knowledge lets them see the difference and think about how long the bed will last, the braging rights that come with having a peice of this quality, etc. just thought id share, take it as you will :p ~Steve -- Aint nothin to it but to do it! |
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138 days ago |
Tony, time estimates are personal item. It really depends upon how quickly you move through your shop and how well you organize your work. I do use this lik fairly often to help estimating work. http://www.bridgewooddesign.com/estimator/ -- Greg - Charles Town, WV |
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138 days ago |
Tony, Good luck and let us know how you make out with it. Justin |
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137 days ago |
Justin - A good idea about the e-mail, it is just a shame they did not put this simple thing into the article. Greg Thanks for the link – I already do this using an excel spread sheet for all my projects, but I ran through the calculator and it came out with the same figure. Steve All that time and record keeping would probably take more time than the work – but I take your point. My customers are invited during the many processes to come along and witness the building, or to make decisions at certain points in the project giving them the chance to make changes or decisions. My website is being updated at the moment and I should include a little more detail on the build process, unfortunately the translation takes quite some time. We do not have a Wall mart, but I do have to contend with IKEA – lets be honest, IKEA quality is good for what it is “Throw away after a few years”. I try not to even compete with stores like this, if people want this then let them buy it, I just try to educate them in the difference in quality. I build pieces that will last a lifetime or even generations. -- Tony - All things are possible, just some things are more difficult than others! - SKYPE: Heron2005 (http://www.poydatjatuolit.fi) |
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135 days ago |
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135 days ago |
I’m just a fan of records. It’s not as much work as you would think, try to find a clock that keeps a running time that pauses, so you dont keep starting from 0. that cuts down on all the mathwork of adding time together. I use methods like this in alot of different business applications. It will also give you a very good reference for future use in bidding or pricing items on your skill level. The more you record, the better your reference guide will get. The level of detail you go into is all personal preference. As for me, I would use it to compile lists of different joints, be it sliding dovetails, mortise tenon, half laps, etc etc. Add in different types of wood, what sizes the joints are etc. After awhile you will have a pretty nice reference guide that you can look back to and get a nice estimate with. I.E. a mortise tenon in 1/2×2 x 18 stock takes “X” minutes per , times the ammount of joints in the project. could do the same for dimentioning lumber, and finishing, etc. I use methods like this alot in the painting business also. I know how many sq ft a gallon of “name paint” will cover on a ” slick face block / split face block / drywall / knockdown” sprayed or rolled on. I also know how long it takes for my guys to apply product to different surfaces. It is additional work, but in the end I know not guess how much material and labor it will take to get a job done, and can bid/price the job knowing my limitations on where my numbers have to be… not where I think they should be. It also shows you detailed improvement on your working speed, and I like the confidence my numbers give me =) This method isnt for everyone, and prolly wont help with your current problem, but I thought id share my methods and maybe you will gain from it in future projects =) -- Aint nothin to it but to do it! |
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131 days ago |
Well it is bad new for me the customer, decided he did not want this style of bed after all, so I am now designing another for him. The selling price by the way was 2,300€ ($3450) including taxes. This relates to about 1 months salary for a normal worker here (just to put into perspective). Thanks to all for the feedback. -- Tony - All things are possible, just some things are more difficult than others! - SKYPE: Heron2005 (http://www.poydatjatuolit.fi) |
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131 days ago |
That was a little low from what I thought. Good luck on your new design. How about something like my medieval design:
-- Gary, East TX -- The longest journey begins with a single step. |
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131 days ago |
Ah the price was low, but he is a good customer, Table, 10 Chairs, Bed and 2 side tables, not a bad way to start the year. What may come after that? I have the design in my head at the moment, getting it down onto a drawing -it is just taking time (motivational problem). -- Tony - All things are possible, just some things are more difficult than others! - SKYPE: Heron2005 (http://www.poydatjatuolit.fi) |
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126 days ago |
here’s some alternate thinking on pricing. |
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82 days ago |
Earning a wage is not the same as running a business. For custom job like this I would charge $8940, and I’m probably giving myself some credit for being a faster woodworker than I actually am !! Never undervalue yourself or everyone else will too. -- Paul |
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82 days ago |
Paul - This comment was not about running a business, It is about the money people can afford to pay and where they live. The average salary here is Finland is low compared to that of California, the disposable income is far less, therfore things have to be realisticly priced. At the end of the day, I would have been happy with the price I was going to charge, it covered my costs and made me a nice profit. If and when I have customers banging down my doors, then I may start to increase prices accordingly -- Tony - All things are possible, just some things are more difficult than others! - SKYPE: Heron2005 (http://www.poydatjatuolit.fi) |
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82 days ago |
Here in southern New Mexico, one would be lucky to sell that bed for $800. Lots of cheap imports from Mexico greatly influence prices here. We have such a “WalMart” mentality around here. Many woodworkers here sell elsewhere, i.e., Taos, Denver, anywhere North. Here’s a clue we’ve learned from the National Association of Independent Artists: Anybody expecting good prices for their work must target the $100,000 dollar households. Those households have the most expendable income to purchase quality work. |
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82 days ago |
Tony, I think you’re on the right track by knowing who your market is. If you can make custom pieces that are affordable to your customers and you’re OK with how much money you make then you’re fine. Good luck. -- Allen, Milwaukee, WI |
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81 days ago |
Tony, I disagree. It is NOT about what people are willing to pay. Your costs are reflected in where you live so your price should be reflective of that, which may be 1/2 of what mine are or double. At the end of the day it costs what it costs and subsidizing someones dream piece of furniture to the detriment of your family is wrong. Their is an unlimited supply of cheap furniture around for everyone, no sense competing with that. -- Paul |
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76 days ago |
We are talking custom woodwork which means the customer is not satisfied with anything they have seen on the market and that is why they talk to us. From the start they know it will cost more and chances are pretty good that they can afford it within reason. Trying to compete with manufactured furniture from anywhere is impossible. You can’t do it. Average income people are paying 700.00 a foot for “custom kitchen cabinets” which in the end I consider throw away furniture because when the house is sold, you won’t have any ability to use them again. Compare that which is nothing more than a machined plywood box with a hardwood face to a solid wood piece of furniture that will be passed down from generation to generation. There is no contest. The term “custom kitchen” has had a great promotion over the years and it’s without a doubt profitable. Consider this question the next time you are discussing price with someone. How much was your last car repair or how much did that new car cost? Where will it be in 10 years? Go to a auto dealer service shop and view the hourly rate they have posted. Why would your customers expect you to work for less? Expensive or cheap is relative only to value perceived by the person writing the check. By the way, I think you gave a fair price on the bed and it is relative to your market and without a doubt how many people are knocking on your door. Investing some of your time to “make a customer” is as important as making a piece of furniture. Best of luck with the project. -- There is no such thing as scrap wood!, http://www.saltrivergallery.com |
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76 days ago |
Wow! A lot of advice on this subject. This is an excellent read, especially for me. My ability to judge time REALLY sucks. And I let people know that. If I’m doing something I haven’t done before (or I have and forgot to write down what I did) I give it my best guess, double it (yah, I’m usually that far off or better) and tell the customer “this is what I think it will be but the price is the price”. I also tell them if they like the piece and the price when I’m done then they buy it. Otherwise I keep it and try to sell it elsewhere. I haven’t had to keep a piece yet, but then, I’ve never commissioned something this big before. I guess if you’re going to use this method it all comes down to 1) can you afford to wait and sell it later and 2) do you have room to store it safely if you have to. Bottom line: how much of a gambler are you and how much can you afford to gamble? My 2 pence worth. -- Michael R. Harvey - Brewster, NY - RusticElementArt.com - SpaceAware.org - AnConn.com |
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74 days ago |
“My ability to judge time REALLY sucks”. I hear you on this one. What is it about woodworking that makes us think we are faster than we actually are ??? It think it comes back to the saying “time flies when you are having fun”. -- Paul |
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