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Is it still a handout dovetail if you use machines

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6K views 62 replies 24 participants last post by  HorizontalMike 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
I'm making a recipe box for my wife for Christmas and I'm dovetailing the sides. When is it not considered hand cut, if you use more machinery than hand saws, or if you use any machinery, I used my scroll to cut the angled lines for the dovetail and I'll chop them out with my chisel, and cut the pins with a handsaw. How do you do it?
 
#2 ·
Technically, I'd call yours 100% hand-chopped and maybe 50% hand-cut but not 100% hand-cut. In the end, does it really matter?

I do mine by hand but use Dave Barron's guide for the saw cuts. Some people think that's cheating, which to me, is ridiculous. Pretty much the only people in the world who care about the method are builders. Everyone else just thinks they look good.
 
#4 ·
Technically if any machine was used in the process, the "hand cut" is voided! :)
Heard of a very talented guy who would use a use a router jig but make scribe lines
to make it look hand cut?

- Andre
Does this mean if I use a jointer plugged into an outlet to prep the sock the dovetails can't be called hand cut?
 
#6 · (Edited by Moderator)
Technically if any machine was used in the process, the "hand cut" is voided! :)
Heard of a very talented guy who would use a use a router jig but make scribe lines
to make it look hand cut?

- Andre
Does this mean if I use a jointer plugged into an outlet to prep the sock the dovetails can t be called hand cut?

Yep that's right your disqualified if you even think about using a machine.:)
 
#7 · (Edited by Moderator)
Technically if any machine was used in the process, the "hand cut" is voided! :)
Heard of a very talented guy who would use a use a router jig but make scribe lines
to make it look hand cut?

- Andre
Does this mean if I use a jointer plugged into an outlet to prep the sock the dovetails can t be called hand cut?

- AlaskaGuy
That's right, AG. In fact, if you use any tools at all - saws, chisels, etc - they are not technically "hand cut." They are tool cut.

Now, if you want to say, "hey Rich, you're so stupid, no one can cut wood with their hands," I say to you, where does it end? You control the saw and chisel with your hands, so you say they're hand cut. Well, I control the router on my Leigh jig with my hands, so are mine hand cut? Where's does the line get drawn?

Carl Sagan said that if you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe.

Let the ridiculousness begin…....
 
#9 · (Edited by Moderator)
Technically if any machine was used in the process, the "hand cut" is voided! :)
Heard of a very talented guy who would use a use a router jig but make scribe lines
to make it look hand cut?

- Andre
Does this mean if I use a jointer plugged into an outlet to prep the sock the dovetails can t be called hand cut?

- AlaskaGuy

That s right, AG. In fact, if you use any tools at all - saws, chisels, etc - they are not technically "hand cut." They are tool cut.

Now, if you want to say, "hey Rich, you re so stupid, no one can cut wood with their hands," I say to you, where does it end? You control the saw and chisel with your hands, so you say they re hand cut. Well, I control the router on my Leigh jig with my hands, so are mine hand cut? Where s does the line get drawn?

Carl Sagan said that if you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe.

Let the ridiculousness begin…....

- Rich
Well the terminology needs changing then. instead of "hand cut dovetails" it need to be " dovetails cut my hand guided hand tools".

Rich, you're not stupid very often. :)
 
#11 ·
Your wife won t care if you used a scrollsaw, unless she is a Lumberjock, so call it what you like. :)

- Rick_M
That's pretty much it…..Lonnie Bird built a chest in an article I read a few years back. The carcase was joined by 1/2 blind DTs. He freehanded most of the waste out with a router, then chiseled them to fit…and called them "hand cut". Call it whatever you want, I won't argue.
 
#12 ·
Here's how I do it:
I use a router template and cut half blind dovetails. I have yet to cut one by hand but appreciate the skill and accuracy of those who do. I have to make some Recipe boxes too and I will use a lock miter bit for the corners.

Cheers, Jim
 
#17 ·
I say it has to be with hand tools & by candlelight. LOL

- rwe2156

I was going to say that, but didn t want to cause a fracas! LOL.

- Ron Aylor
I don't think that goes far enough. Did you forge your own chisels from metals you mined yourself? No? Well, that's cheating in my book. How about that saw? Did you buy the Lie-Nielsen off-the-shelf and ready to cut? You did? Again, that's taking shortcuts.

You'll all excuse me now, I have to tend to my smelter.
 
#18 ·
On the other hand, how about dialing in the CNC to finish the cuts, and as long as you watched, they're hand cut dovetails. You did all the programming, and were there, and fed the wood, so it's not like the machine did them at all. So in a real sense, every dovetail is hand cut, there is no definition at all. Everything today is relative to what you 'think' anyway, no absolutes.

Glad we solved that problem, now to go oversee some work at the local cabinet shop so I can say I made my new kitchen!
 
#19 ·
On the other hand, how about dialing in the CNC to finish the cuts, and as long as you watched, they re hand cut dovetails. You did all the programming, and were there, and fed the wood, so it s not like the machine did them at all. So in a real sense, every dovetail is hand cut, there is no definition at all. Everything today is relative to what you think anyway, no absolutes.

Glad we solved that problem, now to go oversee some work at the local cabinet shop so I can say I made my new kitchen!

- Smitty_Cabinetshop
Touché
 
#21 ·
Technically if any machine was used in the process, the "hand cut" is voided! :)
Heard of a very talented guy who would use a use a router jig but make scribe lines
to make it look hand cut?

- Andre
Does this mean if I use a jointer plugged into an outlet to prep the sock the dovetails can t be called hand cut?

- AlaskaGuy
Hey I didn't make the rules, I disqualified one of my boxes because of the chainsaw used when I cut down the tree and "hand" milled it! ( With my Alaskan Chainsaw Mill )
 
#23 ·
"Hand cut" means "hand cut". So, if you use anything, other than your fingernails to cut the dovetails, it ain t "hand cut"!

- Ripper70
So, if we can't claim hand cut because the builder used a CNC, or router, or bandsaw, or scroll saw, or panel saw, or chisel, no one can claim hand cut. Love it! There are decades of misinformation out there that needs to be addressed.
 
#24 ·
"Hand cut" means "hand cut". So, if you use anything, other than your fingernails to cut the dovetails, it ain t "hand cut"!

- Ripper70

So, if we can t claim hand cut because the builder used a CNC, or router, or bandsaw, or scroll saw, or panel saw, or chisel, no one can claim hand cut. Love it! There are decades of misinformation out there that needs to be addressed.

- Smitty_Cabinetshop
It's the dovetail bible misinterpreted…
 
#25 ·
It's machine people taking exception to galoots that hand-cut dovetails. No mystery / misinterpretation at all. Ever heard of a 'hand saw'? When people say it, do you correct them and say any electric saw or blade with handle is controlled by the human hand and is therefore a hand saw? Or do you say there's no such thing as a hand saw? If someone tells you they ripped a 2×4 by hand, are you confused? If they use 'hand tools', do you have any idea at all what's involved?

Maybe they should be called 'unplugged dovetails.' Yeah, that would add clarity…
 
#26 ·
"Hand cut" means "hand cut". So, if you use anything, other than your fingernails to cut the dovetails, it ain t "hand cut"!

- Ripper70
These are images of true craftsmen cutting their "hand cut" dovetails with nothing other than their fingernails. Hope I've cleared that up for you. Any questions?



 
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