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Spraying water based top coat over water based stain -- bleed thru?

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Forum topic by d38 posted 11-27-2017 04:12 PM 306 views 0 times favorited 8 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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d38

33 posts in 100 days


11-27-2017 04:12 PM

I’m new to water based finishes and will use them on my window trim project in red oak.
The more I read on this forum and other places, the more I get confused.

Will the sanding sealer/top coat dissolve the stain and intermix as it dries, making a muddy look? Or does HVLP spraying eliminate/reduce this risk compared to brush/wipe on application?

I’ve narrowed my product choices to:
• WB stain (Mohawk Ultra Penetrating Stain or GF wood stain)
• Sanding Sealer (Target EM1000 Universal Sanding Sealer or GF Enduro Sanding Sealer)
• WB top coat (Target EM9300 Polycarbonate, or GF Exterior 450)

I have not purchased the Fuji HVLP sprayer yet (Mini-Mite 3 most likely), but I do have all the stains/sealers/top coats on hand to experiment with before using them on the actual project.

Or do I need to use Zinsser Sealcoat Universal Sanding Sealer to seal off the stain? Can it be sprayed easily with a HVLP spray system?

Thanks in advance.
Wayne


8 replies so far

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Carloz

979 posts in 429 days


#1 posted 11-27-2017 04:18 PM

I do water based polyurethane directly over the stain all the time with zero issues. And yes shellac sprays very good. I use a layer of shellac under water polyurethane sometimes not for the sealing but to make water based polyurethane look more like oil based.

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Drew

329 posts in 2938 days


#2 posted 11-27-2017 08:24 PM



I’m new to water based finishes and will use them on my window trim project in red oak.
The more I read on this forum and other places, the more I get confused.

Will the sanding sealer/top coat dissolve the stain and intermix as it dries, making a muddy look? Or does HVLP spraying eliminate/reduce this risk compared to brush/wipe on application?

It might. All depends on the products you use. You’ll definitely want to experiment. I’ve had some horrible results that had me stuck in the finishing room many more hours than I should have. Only because I didn’t test spray first.


I’ve narrowed my product choices to:
• WB stain (Mohawk Ultra Penetrating Stain or GF wood stain)
• Sanding Sealer (Target EM1000 Universal Sanding Sealer or GF Enduro Sanding Sealer)
• WB top coat (Target EM9300 Polycarbonate, or GF Exterior 450)

GF dye stain will lift a little bit with EM9300 but shouldn’t be an issue if you let the dye dry for 24 hours and you go light with your first coat of 9300.

GF dye stain works great with EM1000.

9300 isn’t easy to lay down without much experience and a turbine, but would probably be ok for an exterior application.

I have sprayed GF450 over GF dye stain without issue. This is what I would recommend for you
I would imagine GF wood stain would work fine with their 450 as well, but have not tried it.


Or do I need to use Zinsser Sealcoat Universal Sanding Sealer to seal off the stain? Can it be sprayed easily with a HVLP spray system?

Nope, not with the systems I’ve recomended.

I would also suggest going with white oak over red for exterior usage.

-- TruCraftFurniture.com

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OSU55

1425 posts in 1827 days


#3 posted 11-27-2017 09:18 PM

You dont specify int or ext. As mentioned wb topcoats can lift wb stains/dyes – test specific products to know. For int, I always use shellac to both seal the color and add chatoyance or “pop”. Wb finishes have a very drab appearance otherwise. For ext use it wont matter, and neither will a little bit of color lift. A lite 1st coat as mentioned will reduce the chance.

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d38

33 posts in 100 days


#4 posted 11-27-2017 09:44 PM

This will be interior window trim. I want the UV protection of the Target 9300 or GF 450 since the jambs will be in the sun. Sorry for not clarifying on the first post.

How easy is it to clean a spray gun and switch from Zinsser Sealcoat to the WB finishes? I know the gun needs to be clean, but don’t know how easy (or difficult) it is to get the shellac cleaned out. Staying all WB would make it much easier.

If I like GF for coloring, I’d use the stain https://generalfinishes.com/retail-products/water-based-wood-stains-dyes/water-based-wood-stains#.WhyG4BuWzdc (not dye).

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OSU55

1425 posts in 1827 days


#5 posted 11-28-2017 01:14 PM

Shellac is pretty easy. DNA cleans it right up. I tried Target’s wb shellac and preferred the alcohol based. If you go with em 9300, you might try their WR4000 stain base. By far my preferred stain base. Emulsified oil that helps chatoyance. You dont really need the em1000. I tint shellac with Transtint (can tint wr4000 with it also) for seal coat and toner coat in one.

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CharlesNeil

2144 posts in 3708 days


#6 posted 11-28-2017 03:22 PM

Some dyes bleed thru more than others, red are the worst… There has been alot of improvement over the last couple of years .
The safest bet is as stated , let te dye dry really well and do a light coat of Shellac… 1/2 to 1 lb cut , doesnt take much … After the shellac any topcoat can go on .
I have also used a good drying oil, like Arm R Seal after the dye ,if wiping, let it dry 72 hours and topcoat..

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Fred Hargis

4761 posts in 2331 days


#7 posted 11-28-2017 09:42 PM

I’ll suggest using household ammonia to clean the shellac from your gun. DNA will dissolve it, but the will be a trace amount left…the ammonia will completely destroy it. The ammonia might stain aluminum a little (no harm, other than appearance) and needs to be rinsed out thoroughly…but it’s quite a bit cheaper (mix in warm water) and does a better job.

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

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d38

33 posts in 100 days


#8 posted 12-03-2017 07:04 PM

Thanks for everyone’s inputs.
I’ll do test samples for the General Finish and Mohawk stains/2 light sanding sealer coats, and top coats. Since I’ve got 2 brands of each to try with a spray gun, hopefully something will have no/very minor bleed thru. If not, I’ll do some same samples with shellac.
The shellac seems like a nice choice, but the ammonia cleanup in the garage will create lots of fumes. If it were summer here in SD, I could do that outside, and will keep it in mind for my next project.

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