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Best hardware orientation to avoid loosening?

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Forum topic by LoyalAppleGeek posted 11-03-2017 12:52 AM 3902 views 0 times favorited 33 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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LoyalAppleGeek

160 posts in 734 days


11-03-2017 12:52 AM

Topic tags/keywords: western red cedar question assembly swing build bolt eye hanging

Hey everyone! I’m nearly finished on a large western red cedar A-frame swing. I need to mount the eye bolts to supports that sit at a 45 degree angle. I realized if I drill straight through and mount the eye bolt, The bolt will be at an angle and get pulled in a bending motion with pressure forcing it into the wood sideways. It seems the hole could be compressed at the bottom since the bolt is being pulled sideways rather than just in tention. Due to the width of the swing compared to the A-frame, I can’t mount it anywhere past halfway up the angled brace or the chains will pull inward.


33 replies so far

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LoyalAppleGeek

160 posts in 734 days


#1 posted 11-03-2017 01:07 AM

New photos up now, and both working :)

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jerryminer

812 posts in 1281 days


#2 posted 11-03-2017 01:40 AM

Hard to understand what you’ve got. Can you post a pic of the whole swing—and show us where the bolts would go?

-- Jerry, making sawdust professionally since 1976

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jimintx

513 posts in 1424 days


#3 posted 11-03-2017 03:29 AM

Hard to understand what you ve got. Can you post a pic of the whole swing—and show us where the bolts would go?
- jerryminer

Completely agree with Jerry’s post quoted above. But, before gaining more understanding, I think I would avoid putting torque on a wooden member, and I would use the largest flat washers available to spread the compression load over a wider area.

... ... ...

-- Jim, Houston, TX

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jerryminer

812 posts in 1281 days


#4 posted 11-03-2017 07:53 AM

Well….... The new pics are a little better but it’s still hard to see where the load is. Which way is up?

Can’t you get the whole swing in a pic?

-- Jerry, making sawdust professionally since 1976

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bondogaposis

4482 posts in 2191 days


#5 posted 11-03-2017 12:53 PM

I’d hang them through the top instead of the corner brackets.

-- Bondo Gaposis

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Smitty_Cabinetshop

14857 posts in 2458 days


#6 posted 11-03-2017 01:05 PM

I agree with Bondo, whole heartedly.

-- Don't anthropomorphize your handplanes. They hate it when you do that. -- OldTools Archive --

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PaulHWood

412 posts in 2093 days


#7 posted 11-03-2017 01:12 PM

It’s not torque, it’s bending on the bolt. Also, it would put bearing on the wood which after use could start to erode the hole.

I would also suggest going through the main member, and if geometry does not allow, going though both.

-- -Paul, South Carolina Structural Engineer by trade, Crappy Woodworker by choice

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jimintx

513 posts in 1424 days


#8 posted 11-03-2017 01:55 PM

I’ve about concluded that the pictures are in need of a 90-deg rotation to the right to make sense. Then it would show the frame in upright position, and that LAGeek is holding the bolt toward the upper portion of the A-frame; and that angle gusset piece is between the top cross member and the vertical A-frame.

With that as a basis, the thing I would now suggest is the shaft of the eye-bolt should be vertical, so as to be in-line with the tension exerted on it by the swing. The upper cross member being set at a 45-deg angle complicates the problem since it presents a corner on the top edge, rather than a flat upper surface to bear the load of the bolts.

I’d consider doing one of these things:
I. cut a flat, horizontal. surface into the cross member , that is perpendicular to the bolt shaft. Make it large enough to accommodate a large flat washer under the nuts that hold the bolt.
II. cut a saddle that sits on top of the cross mender at the bolt hole zone, and provides the horizontal surface that is perpendicular to the bolt. Use the flat washer and nuts on top of that added saddle.

You could even combine these ideas:
Cut the notch in the beam edge to make the horizontal surface. Then add a spacer block of wood that is cut to fit that newly formed horizontal surface. The bolt then goes through the beam, and through that added block, and the washer and nuts combo sits on top of that. The spacer black could be replaced without compromising the beam, if the need arose.

(I hope there is at least a little chance that what I have written makes sense to at least a few readers. It’s clear to me!)

-- Jim, Houston, TX

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bigblockyeti

4698 posts in 1560 days


#9 posted 11-03-2017 02:14 PM

I’d have to agree with Paul, hardware like that doesn’t like to be bent or placed in shear (within wood), direct tension is best. Only going through the brace instead of the top beam places unnecessary stress on the hardware maintaining the joint between the brace and legs.

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OnhillWW

112 posts in 1072 days


#10 posted 11-03-2017 02:57 PM

If long term durability is the goal I would swap out the soft plated hanger with a forged / hanger like or similar to this:
https://www.mcmaster.com/#eyebolts/=1a3fggc
The one in the picture will wear through eventually. You can source that type of bolt at a local commercial fastener vendor and I’d be surprised if it cost more than $4-$5 each. I’ve used many of these (galv) and they are very rugged.

You don’t say but I’m assuming that you are positioning the hanger in the corner support because you need the width to accommodate the width of the swing? If so moving the hanger into the top horizontal cross member would not be an option? If so I’d install as in 2nd or bottom photo with wide washers on each face and use a nyloc nut retightening it once again when the wood dries out . If you up size the eye bolt diameter to 5/8th or even 3/4” I really do not see the lateral torque issue being anything to worry about.

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jerryminer

812 posts in 1281 days


#11 posted 11-03-2017 06:47 PM



I ve about concluded that the pictures are in need of a 90-deg rotation to the right to make sense. Then it would show the frame in upright position- jimintx

OK. thanks, Jim. I think I get the concept now. Here’s a sketch of what I think the OP has built. I agree that the eye bolt should be installed in the top beam, not the angled brace—even if the swing is a little too wide and the chain has to angle out a little to catch the swing.

Drilling into the corner of the beam should not be difficult with a V-block drill guide.

-- Jerry, making sawdust professionally since 1976

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LoyalAppleGeek

160 posts in 734 days


#12 posted 11-04-2017 02:50 AM

Thank you so much for the reply’s everyone! I’m sorry I haven’t been able to provide the requested photos or more clearly explain the situation. This is an insane week and I haven’t had time to respond to you guys after throwing the post up as fast as I could.
You are correct about the photo rotation and reiterated my concern well. I was pretty sure that wouldn’t be the best route, but was curious to see if it was possible to get away with it.
Moving the bolt to the top beam was my original plan, until real life didn’t match perfectly with SketchUp. I found doing so allows the bench to move side to side too freely, as well as puts a lot of inward pulling stress on the frame, especially the armrests.
Cutting a flat cutout at a 45 to hold the bolt is what I’ve already done to counter sink all the carriage bolts that are in the frame so would be easy. I thought of putting the eye through both the top beam and brace as well, but I bought my hardware for going through just the top beam so it’s too short. We only go into town once a month or less, so I’m stuck with these bolts.
Here’s my SketchUp plan of the completed swing. Due to the size of my shop and the glue ups in progress, I can’t have the A-frame and swing together yet.

Thank you all so much for your input, though I’ve been doing this for about 6 years now, I’ve always had to depend on asking those more knowledgeable than me for advice. I’ve never had anyone to teach me this wonderful craft, and really appreciate you all being so willing to share your experience.

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LoyalAppleGeek

160 posts in 734 days


#13 posted 11-04-2017 07:39 AM

Alright, I’ve gone over every possibility I could think of, but I’m pretty stuck with almost having to use a 45 degree mount. I was thinking of drilling a 3/4” hole, inserting a pipe, then putting the bolt in a rubber sleeve and fitting it in the pipe. Would that reinforce it and spread the pressure enough?

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jonah

1473 posts in 3138 days


#14 posted 11-04-2017 11:25 AM

I don’t see how that would be any better than just drilling a hole. The key thing is to spread the pressure out on the back side. You’ll want as large a fender washer as you can get for that, or even a metal plate to spread the load even further.

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tomsteve

667 posts in 1059 days


#15 posted 11-04-2017 12:31 PM

imo, youre over complicating it and trying to reinvent the wheel. KISS.

and use stainless forged eye bolts. stainless fender washers,too. you use them rinkety eye bolts in the pic and theyll open up over time.

think about it- 90%+ of the swings lifetime wont see crap for weight on it.

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