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Forum topic by Karda posted 10-15-2017 10:24 PM 588 views 0 times favorited 23 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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Karda

772 posts in 366 days


10-15-2017 10:24 PM

I am turning a vase, wifes idea. I have a oiece on measure about 4 inches in diameter maybe a little less, it is a spindle I will put it on a face plate. how long do I dare let it be without tail support, 6 in would be good wife wands longer what do you think


23 replies so far

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LeeMills

449 posts in 1113 days


#1 posted 10-15-2017 11:37 PM

Are you going to drill it or turn the depth? Drilling is easy with an extension for a forstner bit. If you want to hollow that deep your wife just gave you the approval for a hollowing system (starting at maybe $200).

I would not use screws into the end grain. Turn a 1/4- 1/2” long tenon on the work, screw the faceplate to a side grain waste block, and cut a recess to fit your tenon. Glue into place and part off when finished.

Seriously, 6” deep is pretty deep freehand and you will need a long handle to maintain leverage. Stuart Batty’s guide is 5” behind the tool rest for every 1” over the tool rest so you would need 30” behind the rest. Maybe a bit extreme but I think you would need 20 -24”. I’m sure it can be done with conventional tools but light cuts and no catches would be the objective.

The vases I have turned I used various glass inserts available from Packards or other woodturning vendors.

-- We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them. Albert Einstein

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Karda

772 posts in 366 days


#2 posted 10-16-2017 12:11 AM

OK I get the idea on the waste block. probably the hollow will be about 5”, she wants a heavy bottom. She is using artificial so there will be no water weight thanks for the idea about how wide should the tenon be safe thanks Mike

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Nubsnstubs

1197 posts in 1542 days


#3 posted 10-16-2017 12:41 AM

If your opening is wide enough the get the end of the tool rest into the piece, the 5” rule doesn’t apply. I’ve done several way back in the day before I learned to turn properly that were about 6” deep, but the opening was such that the tool rest fit inside and my overhang was never over 1”...... Jerry (in Tucson)

-- Jerry (in Tucson) www.woodturnerstools.com

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Karda

772 posts in 366 days


#4 posted 10-16-2017 01:55 AM

won’t work the OD is a bit less than 4”, no room. guess she won’t get her vase yet

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Wildwood

2176 posts in 1947 days


#5 posted 10-16-2017 12:27 PM

These 5” & 4 1/2” bowls were turned with heavy duty bowl gouges and scapers didn’t have hollowing tool when turned them. Goes along with what Jerry said.
http://lumberjocks.com/projects/92320
http://lumberjocks.com/projects/92320

These vases, and other turnings over 5” ‘s turned with hollowing tools. Use a Jamison captive hollowing system.
http://lumberjocks.com/projects/163562
http://lumberjocks.com/projects/105800

Hard to control light duty Bowl & spindle gouges, and scrappers over 3” past the tool rest without lot of practice and tool support.

Buying bar rest like these where can adjust them and base to fit inside a box or vase would give you tool support while turning. If cannot figure out how to save your money.

https://www.pennstateind.com/store/CLTSET58.html

PSI used to sell this style tool rest for 5/8” tool rest base that folks used for boxes & vases, now only adapter in catalog and online.

https://www.pennstateind.com/store/CLTXX1.html

-- Bill

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LeeMills

449 posts in 1113 days


#6 posted 10-16-2017 12:59 PM

The last PSI which Bill linked to is what I was trying to find. It still depends on the size opening but a two inch opening should work with it. If you know a welder you can probably have a rest made up for very little. A four inch long arm and stout steel should work. Especially if you use something like a negative rake scraper where you can keep the tool flat on the rest. Predrilling with a forstner is still what I would do to help the process along.

-- We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them. Albert Einstein

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Karda

772 posts in 366 days


#7 posted 10-16-2017 05:19 PM

thanks for your suggestions, I have a 12” bar tool rest and like it better than the one that came with the lathe. I think I am getting over my head. I wanted to do this but if I can’t I can’t. Course I could use it for an excuse to get a 5/8s bowl gouge. all I have to hollow are my bowl gouge and carbide tools, round and square. I think I better stick to basics for now thanks Mike

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Jim Jakosh

19577 posts in 2917 days


#8 posted 10-17-2017 08:45 PM

I would turn it between centers to start and then turn a tenon to fit my chuck ( less than 7/16” long so it does not touch the bottom of the jaws and with an 8 degree taper for secure holding. Use the outward center for support and turn the outside shape.Then drill a hole down to the depth of the inside bottom and start cutting out the wood with a bowl gouge. A 5/8 bowl gouge would be best to use. You can get on from Penn State ( Benjamin’s Best) for not too much money. It is the handiest for most lathe work anyway!

You will need a long support to fit inside the vase as you go deeper so your gouge is not hanging off very far for the hollowing. Finish about 1” in to the final wall thickness and then go deeper for the next inch until you reach the bottom. The mass ahead of the cut will keep it from chattering. At that depth without a steady rest, you’ll have to take lighter cuts and avoid any catches. With the taper on your tenon, if you get a catch, it will most likely not throw the piece out but you may have to push it back against the face of the jaws to keep going.
Good luck….........Jim

-- Jim Jakosh.....Practical Wood Products...........Learn something new every day!! Variety is the Spice of Life!!

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Karda

772 posts in 366 days


#9 posted 10-18-2017 03:05 AM

thanks for the ideas, is a great help. I was wondering what the depth and angles of tenon should be thanks Mike

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Nubsnstubs

1197 posts in 1542 days


#10 posted 10-18-2017 03:48 AM

It’s been my understanding that if your chuck isn’t set up for a dovetail, it’s unsafe to use one. If you have straight jaws, make your tenons at 90 degrees from the form bottom. It has been my experience to put a dove tail on a tenon when it wasn’t necessary and have the end of the tenon crush in the jaws.
Mike, you should have gotten instructions on how to make a tenon for your chuck if it was new. Read them, reread them, and maybe a third time so it will soak in how to use your chuck…... It’s for your own good. .......... Jerry (in Tucson)

-- Jerry (in Tucson) www.woodturnerstools.com

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Karda

772 posts in 366 days


#11 posted 10-18-2017 04:55 AM

I know Jerry my jaws have a ridge on the inside to grip a parallel tenon but the angle is need to make a dovetail recess. The angle is 15 degrees. There is a picture of a skew grind for the dove tail but it makes know sense to me. I don’t do line drawing very well

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Wildwood

2176 posts in 1947 days


#12 posted 10-18-2017 01:08 PM

Nova does tell you to use a skew as a scraper to cut dovetails, but also sells a dovetail chisel for that purpose.
This guy made his own tool which resembles Nova tool. I responded can just use a parting tool, gouge or skew to do the same thing.

http://www.penturners.org/forum/f30/tenon-recess-tool-150573/

If cannot visulize how to do it don’t do it. What you need is two square ends on your blank in order to cut that dovetail or tenon. Helps if can mount your blank between centers whether using your drive center or chuck and square up ends. Found easier to use one of my parting tools for squaring up ends of blans on the lathe, but have also used a skew peeling cut. I will leave small nub on one or both ends and cut with my Japanese style saw.
Not exactly sure what tools Mike has other than bowl gouge and carbide tools.

Lot of turners starting out bought either their $80 or $65 tool sets

https://www.harborfreight.com/professional-high-speed-steel-wood-turning-set-8-pc-61794.html
https://www.harborfreight.com/professional-high-speed-steel-wood-lathe-chisel-set-8-pc-69723.html

Don’t recommend their $20 set of carbon steel tools but know several turners that use them.

https://www.harborfreight.com/wood-lathe-turning-tool-kit-8-pc-62674.html

Many of these folks have modified these tool for different uses.

Finding the right tool to use for a particular purpose takes some experimenting with different tools and gaining confidencebut until can visualize in your mind how to do something don’t!

-- Bill

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LeeMills

449 posts in 1113 days


#13 posted 10-18-2017 01:38 PM

I made a tool similar to the one Bill linked to at the penturners. It works great if you have to keep the tailstock in place. It can be presented 45 to the wood allowing you to not hit the tailstock.
If you have it mounted with wormscrew, faceplate, or other secure holding method the tailstock can be removed to cut the recess. A $2 flat screwdrive reground with 15 will last you a lifetime.

I have Novas and the standard jaws are bowl jaws. For deeper work the spigot jaws are excellent. If you do ever get spigot jaws get the 35mm not the 45mm. Spigot jaws are sized by the interior and bowl jaws are sized by the exterior. There is only 1mm difference in the 45mm Spigot and the 50mm bowl; The bowl is 41/51 and the spigot is 42/52.
For a project such as you vase I use a tenon at least one inch LONG with the spigot jaws. From Nova’s instructions for spigot jaws… ”Spigot Depth: Always use maximum spigot depth of 30mm (1 3/16”)”.

-- We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them. Albert Einstein

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Karda

772 posts in 366 days


#14 posted 10-18-2017 04:40 PM

this tool is pictured in my instructions, the angle is 15 degrees. but I don’t understand, is the tool straight or does it have a 15 degree angle ground on one corner.

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LeeMills

449 posts in 1113 days


#15 posted 10-18-2017 06:32 PM

Do you have a Nova? I am not sure what tool is pictured in your instructions. Is it the Nova Dovetail tool or the instructions for using a skew? If for using a skew these instructions should be close under the “Forming Recess”. http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/pdfImages/ba/baa4e3ec-9af0-4455-8f4a-73e26474150e.pdf

A couple of problems may occur. One they state 15 is standard for a skew, and it may have been at one time.
Most now are 20
(70 across the blade width). Most older skews came with “corners”. After Alan Lacer’s video on the skew around 2000 where he shows rounding the edges to prevent digging into the tool rest many tool makers started rounding the edges from the factory. With the edges rounded you loose the cutting surface along the edge.

Whether you grind a 15 angle on the side and leave the end 90 to the shaft edge or whether you grind the end of the tool to 75 you get the same result. Just depends on what angle you present the tool to the work from. The “dovetail tool” sold by Nova has the angle ground on the side. Grinding the end to 15/75 is much easier to me than grinding the side.

-- We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them. Albert Einstein

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