Is Constructive Criticism Overrated?

Interesting thoughts Charlie. I can’t say I disagree with them either. Aesthetics are subjective after all, so not really something that will necessarily help me with my work. Technical might, but only if someone offers a trick or tip that can help me, rather than referring me to someone else’s DVD.

I do like the idea of having a drop down menu that lets you select the level of critique you want that was mentioned in Leon’s thread. Then, you can ask for criticisms if you’re not sure what’s “not quite right” about your piece of work.

-- "Give me your poor tools, your tired steel, your huddled masses of rust." Yep, I ripped off the Statue of Liberty. That's how I roll!

Well said Charlie.

I myself am not here to judge, or criticize anyones work.

I just enjoy looking at other peoples projects, forums, or blogs.

I think the only place to offer advise to someone, is in the forum, or blogs.

Projects, should be off limits for giving out advise, or criticism .

If anyone wishes my advise, or help,

all they have to do is just ask, & I’ll gladly do all I can.

-- -** You are never to old to set another goal or to dream a new dream ****************** Dick, & Barb Cain, Hibbing, MN. http://www.woodcarvingillustrated.com/gallery/member.php?uid=3627&protype=1

I kind of like the idea of a drop-down menu, Tomcat, but I see a little problem with it as well: I would feel like if I chose the option to be critiqued, my friends would feel obligated to take the time to make detailed remarks, and thus I would be putting a burden on them. And if I did not choose to be critiqued, I would feel like it made me look snobbish or oversensitive. The old “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” dilemma.

-- Charlie M. "Woodworking - patience = firewood"

Your 4 reasons for sticking around are the same by me. And honestly Charlie, anyone who could construct a rosewood veneered box just to harbor his favorite measuring tools is allright in my book. See, I also believe in checking one’s projects and links to see what level he’s shooting from. I remember that one of my “recently added” buddy’s suggested that we do basically the same thing! (That is, to check on someone’s level of carpentry before commenting. What they posted might be the best they can do at this time.) I thought that was in itself a great statement, and is something I’ve attempted to do all along.

As for the ideas given regarding a “drop down critique level indicator thingy”, I don’t think that would stop any negative feedback. This is where you said it best: “I’ve met a fantastic bunch of folks here, and I know that all comments are in the spirit of helping each other become better woodworkers.”

Sounds like a good idea.

-- Bob Vila would be so proud of you!

I’m fairly new to this community but CharlieMs assessment of reasons to participate here are right on target in my opinion. Fortunately, (yes, fortunately) the world is full of different personalities and I’m sure that includes the population of members here at LJs. I don’t consider criticism to be negative unless it is delivered in a derogatory or demeaning style. However, the familiarity of the party giving and receiving the criticism should be considered. For example, in my opinion, it would be inappropriate and rude for an LJ member who does not have some established relationship with the recipient to make unsolicited criticism of their projects or works unless such criticism was specifically requested. In such a case, if someone did feel strongly enough to leave criticism, I hope they would ask themselves what value will come from it? What will they gain, what will the other party gain and what will the group as a whole gain from it? Unless there is a compelling reason behind any of these questions, (safety, legality, group ethics) it’s best to keep the criticism to yourself.

Regarding the drop down selector, that’s an interesting idea but keeping with KISS, just asking for criticism in the post is probably the solution and if it isn’t specifically requested, then use common courtesy and don’t provide it. If you absolutely must unload on someone, then do it via a private message so the entire community doesn’t have to become engaged and distracted by it.

-- Mike, Meridian, ID, www.fishfinridge.com

You are a wise man Charlie.

-- When you give someone a chance it may well be their last.

Charlie,

I see what you’re saying, and to some extent I can agree. Since I can only speak for myself, I know that just because someone wants constructive criticism, doesn’t mean I have to work to find something to point out to them. If to me it looks darn good as is, why tell them their dovetails aren’t right? Why hunt for a critique?

Still, that’s just me and everyone is different. So, perhaps, I’m the minority on this.

Personally, I don’t need constructive criticism on my work thus far. The mistakes are so glaring to me, I can’t see how anyone can miss them :)

-- "Give me your poor tools, your tired steel, your huddled masses of rust." Yep, I ripped off the Statue of Liberty. That's how I roll!

Personally, I don’t need constructive criticism on my work thus far. The mistakes are so glaring to me, I can’t see how anyone can miss them :)

That was pretty much my point. Not so much that there is anything wrong with the critique, just that it probably doesn’t have that much positive impact.

-- Charlie M. "Woodworking - patience = firewood"

You are a wise man Charlie.

You really should talk to my wife, Russel. :-)

-- Charlie M. "Woodworking - patience = firewood"

Charlie, I agree with you 100% on all of your comments.
I didn’t comment on Leon’s post, but continue to follow it if something new is added.
There are no visible emotions on forums such as this, making it extremely difficult to judge someone else’s intended meaning.
I have misunderstood and been misunderstood many times on the internet, even on this site.
I have posted more here in 21 days than I have in all the other formus I follow, in 15 years.
This site has the friendliest atmosphere of any site I know of.
Dadoo, I like your idea of checking other’s projects before making comments. I will definitely be doing this in the future.
My 2 cents and it’s worth more now (Canadian) ;^)

-- If we learn from our mistakes, I'm getting a fantastic education.

Dick Cain gave me a bit of advice once in a private message. Now Dick and I have been the best of friends since I’ve been on here. I asked him to post it on the site, that it was great advice and might be helpful to someone else which he did. Now to me that wasn’t criticism, it was just good fatherly advice and I appreciated it. Just a thought. mike

-- Mike. Profisher50@yahoo.com

All right Charlie, you asked for it so here I go!

I think there are three different types of criticisms and one of yours is miscatorigized.

I agree with you about aesthetics. To each their own. (whatever floats your boat)
Should you post comments? My answer is only if asked and expressed as a opinion not fact.

When you say ‘technical’ you should say “execution”. The dovetails are too loose?
Should you post comments? My answer is no. They probably already know they could do better.

Technical should be the methodology you used. For example guleing long grain to short grain, or short
grain to short grain.
Should you post comments? My answer is yes. If they did it wrong technically, then they probably didn’t
know any better, and pointing it out would in a nice way, would help them to do things correctly in the future.

But who knows, I could be wrong.

-- Gary, East TX -- The longest journey begins with a single step.

I like the KISS idea… Really simple. No drop down menu, no “constructive critisim” unless the poster askes for imput or advise.

Anybody can look at all the projects posted on this site and see the varing levels of skills. both astetic & technical and figure out where their own project falls. A begining or intermedate woodworker (of any age) can marvel at the prowess of many highly skilled craftsmen/artists on this site. It’s pretty simple to find a skill you wish you had & ask for help in developing it for yourself, either thur this site or other sources.

Are we not our own worst critiics? You don’t need any body else pointing out your shortcomings. Just don’t be afraid of asking for adviceif you feel the need. I did: http://lumberjocks.com/topics/2086

-- http://www.grandprairiewoodworks.com

Good point, Gary. I grudgingly and resentfully stand corrected. LOL!

Any comment that is clearly of a helpful nature should be welcomed.

-- Charlie M. "Woodworking - patience = firewood"

A couple of thoughts…

I know Leon was talking about constructive criticism the the comment that got his attention was a criticism, but I think his real point is that there is very little constructive critique here positive or negative. Lots of people say nice job and give you a pat on the back. After a couple of pats they start to loose there meaning. I would challenge everyone to spend the time, even if it means you comment on fewer projects, to offer specific constructive comments. Instead of saying “nice job” say something specific like “I really like the contrast between the maple and walnut.” or “Your dovetails look very nice and tight”. A pat on the back for setting up the dovetail jig is better than a pat on the back.

Critique is as much about learning to see yourself as it is helping others. This is why I get upset when new people don’t comment because they “don’t know enough”. I say phooey you know what you like and thats enough for anyone.

Charlie you mention inspiration as a reason for coming here. I’m sure you, like the rest of us, see something nice and say “I’d like to build that but I think I would change x, y and z”. Why not share those changes with the group. I took a look at your last project (the walnut drawer chest ), which I really like, and would offer the following: The overall proportions are very pleasing. I like that you included pulls on the false drawer front. The color of the walnut, the inlay material and the brass works well together. Overall a most excellent box I would have been proud to have made.
I do have my personal x, y and z. I think there are too many competing edge profiles. The under bevel is ornate compared the rest of the profiles, the quarter round works well with the curvature of the legs and the chamfer is too hard compared to legs and quarter round and legs. I would have gone with a quarter round on the drawer fronts and a cove for the top overhang. I would have made the drawer fronts from the same piece of wood so all of the grain lines run through the inlay and into the next drawer front.

The things I would have changed are very minor. Most people don’t consciously pick up on why they really like certain pieces of art and don’t like other pieces that are similar. If you want to build something functional I applaud you for not going to IKEA. If you are trying to claw your way up the mountain of functional art the devil is in the details and you have to learn to see the details.

For those of you who think beauty is entirely subjective please note that height and width dimensions of (9×14) is very close to a phi ratio.

for anyone interested I’m going to try and start a critique group on Flickr here...

PS all reviews are personal and sometimes we all miss the mark. I saw a semi famous photo by The father of photojournalism voted out of a critique photo group on Flickr

-- Che.

Amen Che!

Charlie; don’t know if you saw my comment on Leon’s Forum or not, but one of the things that attracted me to this site was all the fabulous expertise and experience. Stuff like Che said above about your project is exactly what I think we need. You can agree or disagree with what he says, but it does you good by giving you another set of eyes looking at it. Another point of view. A point of view which could help us learn from the great experience in here. I’ve learned a bunch just by reading other comments and asking questions, which everyone has been great about.

When you comment as Che did you tell what is good and what could be better, “but”, in my opinion, Che must also be open for questions back as well…help that person learn.

This site is full of great folks with equally great attitudes which has set a precedence to be followed. I believe in them and think the worries about feelings being hurt are well….a matter of trust in the members. I’m here to meet good folks who share my love for woodworking, but also to learn more in increase my skills. I have faith that the folks here won’t intentionally hurt anyone’s feelings. And I also believe by adding comments like this it would enrich what a great, great thing we already have going here. Hope that helps a little.

-- Jim Hallada, Chesterfield, VA

OK…I’ve changed my signature.

-- Bob Vila would be so proud of you!

I don’t think the issue is with the “Constructive Criticism” unless it’s the term itself. The problem is receiving comments that DON’T have value. You want feedback that you can use to improve your woodwork. How can we accomplish that?

Take your two examples :
1) An aesthetic criticism would be “I think dovetails would have looked really great instead of those miters.”
2) A technical criticism would be “I see that your hand cut dovetails came out a little loose…have you seen so and so’s video on doing those?”

If I didn’t ask for any input ( comments, suggestions, critique ) , I may not want or be interested in your opinions. But you might surprise me with something I had not thought of. You could also offend me.

If I ask for input ( comments, suggestions, critique ) but was not specific you may tell me things I already know ( and don’t want to be reminded of ). But you might surprise me with something I had not thought of. Again I could be offended.

If I ask specifically about dovetails vs miters or how could I improve my dovetail joints. Then I should get what I asked for – your opinion ( hopefully without being offended ).

In all cases the actual feedback (“Constructive Criticism”) is the same – your opinion. The difference is on how it is received. Very hard for a potential responder to know if or how to respond.

Bottom line looks like it should be on the project poster. When you post a project, explicitly ask for input on any or all of the asthetic/execution/techincal aspects of the project. If you ask for general comments , you may not be happy with the feedback you get.

For the responders, “If they don’t ask, Don’t Tell”

-- Leon -- Houston, TX - " I create all my own designs and it looks like it "

You make some good points, Che. Interesting food for thought. The tidbit about the deleted Cartier-Bresson photo says something about all this as well.

An aside, as it relates to your comments about my walnut drawer chest, sometimes we all just experiment. My first instinct was to round the drawer fronts, but I felt sort of “been-there-done-that” so I tried something else. I think your suggestions are right on. Probably within the next week I’ll be posting another box. I’m not really happy with the way the overall result is turning out, but it has some elements that make it a bit different from my other projects. So I think it is worth sharing, not because it is my best work, but because someone else in the group might want to take an idea from it and refine it.

-- Charlie M. "Woodworking - patience = firewood"

I’ve changed my signature as well:

—Direct your criticisms of my work to Dadoo.

(just kidding)

Actually I think GaryK hit it right on the head. If my work is sloppy, I don’t need you pointing that out. In fact, I was probably reluctant to even post that project because I know the dovetails are loose. But people absolutely should post a project of their first (sloppy) dovetails, because it is important for others to see that it is a learning curve. You have to start somewhere. Dovetails (just as the example) are intimidating. LJ’s need to see that not everyone gets it right on the first try. But through practice you will get better.

While still on the sloppy dovetail example, here are two ways to post criticism:

Not so good: “Your dovetails are loose. They could have been cut a little tighter.”

Better: “I wish my first dovetails looked that good. Have you seen dovemaster’s video? He has some interesting tips that might help you on the next one.”

Some of the best conversations I’ve had on LJ’s have started from criticism from a fellow LJ. I don’t mind it in any form because I know I can take it or leave it if I disagree.

-- Check out my new website! http://www.theeasellife.com

Blake, your sense of diplomacy is excellent! :-)

-- Charlie M. "Woodworking - patience = firewood"

And speaking of diplomacy…. sometimes silence speaks louder than words. Whether this is a good thing or not, you can usually tell what people, in general, think of your project based on how many comments are made. Good project = lots of comments. Not my best work = not many comments.

-- Charlie M. "Woodworking - patience = firewood"

Charlie,

One of my motivations for hanging on this website is because it is full of people that do a least some things much better than I do and I can learn from them. When such a resource is available, it is a pity not to tap into it and have an atmosphere in which everybody is just saying cute things. For example, I would love Tony Wards to tell me what he really things about my boxes (by the way, the quality of my boxes are nowhere near his quality) and I would like people like Mike Schwing to tell me what they think about my woodturning. Why? because it is too hard to figure out everything yourself and it is too hard to find a “master” to apprentice with. Now, of course, not everybody is of the same opinion but I am sure enough people are.

Now, to answer your question. Is constructive criticism overrated? Well, I think it is crucial if you want to become good; I mean really good. It is not so much that the other person is right, but you get to think critically about your work from the beginning. The scientific work uses peer review as the primary means to weed out good from bad and ultimately to make everybody better. When I write a paper, I’m already thinking what my peers will say about it and act accordingly. Having people on LJ open up my eyes to look at things from a different perspective I think is invaluable. Another important thing is the fact that people that critique can critique themselves better and improve their work. One of the first things I do with a new student is get them to critique published work. Why, because it is easier to see the “straw in somebody else’s hair than the pole in your eyes”.

Another worthy point is that, when answering to criticism, the designer reveals things worth saying that for some reason were not said in the description. In the message just above mine, you provide a very nice rationale for why you did things the way you did. A lot of people can benefit from this, not only you since the all of this stuff is revealed. Most beginners would consider the design process “esoteric” at best. By posting critiques and replies to them they can understand the “whys”.

All I’m saying is that providing critiques is healthy for a community and lots of people benefit from it.

Alin

-- -- Alin Dobra, Gainesville, Florida

As Che did, you make a very compelling case, Alin!

-- Charlie M. "Woodworking - patience = firewood"

I agree with you for the most part Charlie, however Gary makes some strong points. If I see something I don’t like I usually avoid commenting on it.

-- --Chuck

I just put up a project yesterday and requested critiques. I offered that it was not up to the standards of many of the Jocks that post, and pointed out its obvious flaws. I got many critiques that were helpful and encouraging. Nobody slammed me. I rate it as a very positive experience that has helped me progress.

-- Maplewood, MN

something I learned about online “chatting” years and years ago was that people come here for different reasons and are seeking different things.

If you need/want guidance, critiques, etc – ask for them.
If you have some constructive criticism and you aren’t sure how the person will receive it – send the comment via private messages.
And if you want to leave a lovely and lengthy message, wonderful. If you only have time or the desire to just say “good job” then do just that.

-- "Functional WoodArt" by Debbie, Canada (http://www.execulink.com/~yohan)

I have a friend, a new friend.
When I first met up with this friend they told me that they were extremely resilient and not to hold back on any comments toward or about them and or their work.
I took this to mean that a certain degree of maturity had set in and that we could be frank with each other and allow our friendship to grow on mutual respect and accommodation.

As the relationship progressed I found certain aspects seemed to be going off course.
I tried to ignore this as maybe just not understanding the other person well and all the other reasons you make up when you want something to work.

Finally one day I sat down a penned a couple of grievances and my concerns and waited patiently for a reply.
I got one. ... My new friend was obviously hurt by my “critique” and reacted by tossing out the friendship in order to justify my sleight to them.

Lessons learned:
1. Don’t believe people that ask for critiques unless you have known them personally for some time.
2. Don’t critique anybody.

Bob

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

I think MsDebbieP’s comments above really say a whole lot in a few words. Thanks, Debbie.

-- Charlie M. "Woodworking - patience = firewood"

I’ve kind of stayed out of the this but will add a thing or two. First, I can’t critique your work from a photo. I can’t see it well enough to really do justice to the critique. I also don’t have it in my hands and you standing there to talk to. If you want my help, ask for it in PM and I will do my best to help you. If you want to know what I really think about your project send me a PM and I will give you my best opinion. I’m self-employed and work about 70 hours a week, I’m busy. If I take the time to write, “Good Work” in the comment section of your project it means 2 things; #1 I took the time to look and #2, I felt it worthy of a comment to let you know I looked. If I didn’t say anything, it might mean I looked and didn’t like what I saw or I didn’t notice your project. There are so many projects now that I don’t have time to comment on all of them. And when I do take the time, I don’t have much. It takes a spectacular project to get more from me right now. Now, I need to get going, I’m working a show today that is 90 miles away.

-- Thos. Angle, Owyhee Design, Oregon

My mother always said “If you have nothing nice to say, then dont say anything”

After 48 years of life…...........it’s finally sinking in

That said. Anyone who never made a mistake…..........never did much

-- http://www.furnituremann.ca/

I’ve always asked for “constructive” critism with anything I do, as I use it as a learning experience to become better at what I do. This pretains to work as well as play. But what I have sadly discovered in life is that if you’re in any competition with anyone, then that critism can quickly become “destructive”. Especially at work when your coworker is failing and you are succeeding at what you do. Jealousy and greed run rampant everywhere you go.

Here at LumberJocks though, we are not in direct competition with each other, so these destructive remarks are few if ever seen. We’re all here to show our skills and learn from each other, and even though some are true pros in cabinetry, they may be just amatures in making boxes. Tomorrow the cabinet maker will turn out one of the nicest boxes you’ve ever seen and that box maker will be redoing his kitchen cabinets!

-- Bob Vila would be so proud of you!

Just a thought … but as someone who’s been a member for 296 days, and still has yet to post a single project … I must say … there’s already a way to let people know you aren’t looking for their comments or criticism! ; )

-- Lip's Dysfuncational Firewood Farm, South Bend, IN

Personally, I think the most important aspect of constructive criticism is a proposed solution. I think most of us can agree that just saying you don’t like something or pointing out that something isn’t perfect isn’t very helpful. However, if you can tell me how I can fix or improve my work, that one act of truly constructive criticism would be more helpful than all the attaboys in the world. Just my take on it.

-- Tom, Southwest Florida

Charlie/All, interesting discussion and not sure I could add much more. I am my “own worst critic” and I think anyone with an ounce of creativity is. Though I have built some very nice things (in my own mind), and have posted projects here and have had great response from people who cared to comment, I post to share what it is I do to relax, have fun, build for the family and every once in a while for profit. I try to stretch my capability and learn new things with harder projects. I am not critical of others work no matter what “level” it is. Why is a simple toy chest any less worthy of praise that a reproduction highboy? I believe I have the skills to do both, and the tools, but should I be critical of the guy who maxed out his currret skill level with a simple toy chest? Or the fact he used nails and not hand cut dovetails? Constructive critism my be viewed as an “opportunity for improvement” does that sound PC enough? No folks, I do this wonderful hobby for a whole lot of other reasons. I get evaluated in my day job once a year, I have to write evaluations on the people in my group once a year, I have to evaluated the raw and packing material vendors I deal with everyday, so when it comes to my own (wood) work, it’s the look on one of the grand daughters faces, or my wife, or my own children that gives me all the feedback I need.

-- Rick, Jackson, TN "Do What You Like. Like What You Do" Life Is Good

When I joined LJ about a year ago I was around number 400, there are now over 2500.

In that time I’ve sen a lot of things I wouldn’t touch – just not my style.
In that time I’ve seen a lot of things I couldn’t touch – don’t have those skills.

One good thing about this group is that if you see something you would like to do it is just fine to send that person a PM and strike up a conversation. Get taught a new technique.

My $.03 is not to offer criticism of someone else’s work but offer your expertise to someone who might like a little assistance. This could be done through your signature – “I’ve got a great box joint technique I will share.” “I just love to talk marquetry” ‘Let’s talk pens” I’m sure you guys can come up with better ideas to get some education going here. Something more than “Nice looking log” You can put that on your post when you look at the project and see that the poster could use a little friendly assistance and it would not be a criticism.
Lee

-- No piece is cut too short. It was meant for a smaller project.