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Need help with finishing problem

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Forum topic by Oldtool posted 05-26-2017 11:39 PM 677 views 0 times favorited 12 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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Oldtool

2515 posts in 2025 days


05-26-2017 11:39 PM

Topic tags/keywords: question refurbishing finishing

I’m in the process of refinishing kitchen cabinets, which are about 15 years old and have some wear spots. The worn spots have exposed the raw wood, which is maple that had a cherry stain, and I assume a lacquer finish.

The process so far has been:
Clean the door with naphtha, followed by a 4 ought steel wool scrub,
Sand with 320 paper,
Dye the exposed maple with Behlen’s Cherry,
Wipe on a very thin coat of General Finishes Arm-R-Seal,

At this point, the door looked pretty good, however the exposed maple need additional coats to the raw wood to reach the smoothness of the rest of the door. General Finishes recommends 3 coats.

I waited 24 hours for the first coat of Arm-R-Seal to dry, then added a second coat, and that is when the problem evidenced itself as shown in the photos, I immediately noticed a wrinkle effect which never alleviated itself.

I am assuming I will have to dry this second coat and then sand to achieve a smooth finish, however as I have never experienced this effect with this same finish prior, which is on 90% of my projects, I wanted to dip into the pool of knowledge here and hopefully finish this project successfully.

Thank you in advance for any assistance you may be able to offer,

-- "I am a firm believer in the people. If given the truth, they can be depended upon to meet any national crisis. The point is to bring them the real facts." - Abraham Lincoln


12 replies so far

View TungOil's profile

TungOil

744 posts in 330 days


#1 posted 05-27-2017 02:23 AM

Hopefully Charles will jump in here. I’m going to suggest that it looks to be a finish incompatibility problem. If you suspect the doors are lacquer, perhaps try sanding the next door to 220 grit and hitting it with a few coats from a rattle can of lacquer.

-- The optimist says "the glass is half full". The pessimist says "the glass is half empty". The engineer says "the glass is twice as big as it needs to be"

View Rich's profile

Rich

1977 posts in 424 days


#2 posted 05-27-2017 02:24 AM

My understanding is that is due to silicone oil, which is an ingredient in pretty much every furniture polish they sell in retail stores.

Obviously, you’re going to need to remove that finish, and treat the wood. I’m not an expert, and others are free to correct me, but I think shellac would seal it off and allow you to continue with your Arm-R-Seal.

-- No matter how much you push the envelope, it'll still be stationery.

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Rich

1977 posts in 424 days


#3 posted 05-27-2017 02:26 AM


Hopefully Charles will jump in here. I m going to suggest that it looks to be a finish incompatibility problem. If you suspect the doors are lacquer, perhaps try sanding the next door to 220 grit and hitting it with a few coats from a rattle can of lacquer.

- TungOil

Respectfully Tung, I’ve found lacquer hates any sort of silicone oil. My guess is that it’s been polished with something like Pledge. I’ve had it happen to me. I believe, and Oldtool can test a small section, that shellac would isolate that and allow him to continue with pretty much any topcoat he wants.

Edit: But yeah, there is one guy who you should listen to if you’re lucky enough to get a reply.

-- No matter how much you push the envelope, it'll still be stationery.

View cracknpop's profile

cracknpop

259 posts in 2184 days


#4 posted 05-27-2017 03:35 AM

It appears your second coat “lifted” the earlier coat. Unfortunately, in my past experience, there isn’t much you can do to salvage it other than sand the finish off and start again.

While I am not familiar with Arm-R-Seal products, I have seen lifting in a couple different scenarios.
Lacquer over an enamel is at high risk of lifting. If unsure of what was used as the original finish, then a sealer coat of shellac can help avoid the new top coat from adversely affecting the first coat. It also helps with top coat adhesion.

There are also some lacquer-polyurethane combination/conversion finishes that require second coat within 4 hours of first coat or wait for 48-72 hours after first coat. To recoat outside of those timeframes can cause lifting like what you experienced. I have seen this in some rattle can finishes as well as some professional finishes.

-- Rick - I know I am not perfect, but I will keep pressing on toward the goal of becoming all I am called to be.

View CharlesNeil's profile

CharlesNeil

2143 posts in 3705 days


#5 posted 05-27-2017 01:06 PM

did it lift in the areas that were the bare wood … ???

View Oldtool's profile

Oldtool

2515 posts in 2025 days


#6 posted 05-27-2017 01:18 PM



did it lift in the areas that were the bare wood … ???

- CharlesNeil

Yes, the same crinkle or wrinkle appears, but not as severe. The wrinkle is not as pronounced, doesn’t stick up as high as the other areas with prior finish, but still rough to the touch. Never experienced this with Arm-R-Seal before, totally perplexed.
Thinking that dewaxed shellac after good sanding or card scraper, then some type of finish, same or rattle can lacquer.

Thanks for assisting.

-- "I am a firm believer in the people. If given the truth, they can be depended upon to meet any national crisis. The point is to bring them the real facts." - Abraham Lincoln

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CharlesNeil

2143 posts in 3705 days


#7 posted 05-27-2017 01:27 PM

I have never had this issue either with AS.. i am thinking that the first coat had not dried enough, which allowed the second coat to soften it.. there often what is called a recoat window ..where you either have to recoat soon after the first or wait an extended time.. i was thinking that the finish under it wasnt allowing it to dry as fast as it should.
i agree scrape , sand it down, then clean well with naphtha, then when you get your color right do a coat of shellac.. the rattle can would do well, it will seal the surface down .then perhaps a light scuff sand .. more of a light wipe ..then either continue with the As or lacquer would be faster .

View Oldtool's profile

Oldtool

2515 posts in 2025 days


#8 posted 05-27-2017 01:31 PM



I have never had this issue either with AS.. i am thinking that the first coat had not dried enough, which allowed the second coat to soften it.. there often what is called a recoat window ..where you either have to recoat soon after the first or wait an extended time.. i was thinking that the finish under it wasnt allowing it to dry as fast as it should.
i agree scrape , sand it down, then clean well with naphtha, then when you get your color right do a coat of shellac.. the rattle can would do well, it will seal the surface down .then perhaps a light scuff sand .. more of a light wipe ..then either continue with the As or lacquer would be faster .

- CharlesNeil

Thank you for your time and expertiese, very much appreciated. Have a great holiday weekend,
Tom

-- "I am a firm believer in the people. If given the truth, they can be depended upon to meet any national crisis. The point is to bring them the real facts." - Abraham Lincoln

View Tennvol's profile

Tennvol

1 post in 199 days


#9 posted 05-27-2017 03:15 PM

Cracknpop is 99% correct. 35 years of finishing experience tells me that I will have to either sand or hand plane the finish off. While there is a possibility the defect is caused by “silicone”, it appears more to me that you have applied a lacquer finish over a varnish finish.

Do not ever let silicone lubricant get in your workshop !

Tennvol
Central Texas

-- Jerry, Central Texas

View OSU55's profile

OSU55

1423 posts in 1824 days


#10 posted 05-28-2017 11:55 AM

In support of a shellac coat – I refinished my kitchen cabs a few years ago. Pretty sure they were a lacquer finish. Did not strip, cleaned and prepped, then a coat of 1# tinted shellac (to alter the color), another light coat of 1# shellac, then topcoated with wb poly. No issues with the finish.

View Oldtool's profile

Oldtool

2515 posts in 2025 days


#11 posted 06-03-2017 02:40 PM

Update after successful fix, for any future LJs seeking assistance for similar problems:
The solution is described by Charles Neil above; the first coat wasn’t completely dry, even after 24 hours, due to several days of steady spring rain, so I sanded and followed with steel wool, applied a coat of Seal Coat, let it dry an excessive amount of time to be sure of myself, then back to the Arm R Seal.
All is good again in the kitchen

-- "I am a firm believer in the people. If given the truth, they can be depended upon to meet any national crisis. The point is to bring them the real facts." - Abraham Lincoln

View RussellAP's profile

RussellAP

3103 posts in 2121 days


#12 posted 06-05-2017 03:11 PM

Glad it came out well.
The weather can sure be a factor in finishes. I recommend a good safe heater. I like to have 70 degree’s in my shop when I use a sealer. After an hour you can add a fan to help the process. Personally, I’ve never had this issue before but I work mostly rustic woods, where something like what happened here is preferred.

-- A positive attitude will take you much further than positive thinking ever will.

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