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Forum topic by MashMaster posted 05-03-2017 08:14 PM 620 views 0 times favorited 11 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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MashMaster

125 posts in 2496 days


05-03-2017 08:14 PM

OK, I am regretting a key step in my table top build. I actually feel pretty foolish, but I will learn from this. I glued in my breadboard ends on my table top, in the center only. I know have 2 issues and seeking a solution. I might have a solution but not sure if it is too risky. I feel horrible about my mistakes :-(

You’ll notice, I am getting a slight seperation between the breadboard end and the tabletop section. it is hairline, just at the ends but I can imagine it never being perfectly flush since the ends aren’t glued. I also messed up with my trim router and nicked the corner of the table.

Question 1:
For the nick, should I leave it? fill it with epoxy, or trim the breadboards by 1/2” on each end.

Question 2:
For the joint between the table top and the ends, sand and let them move as the will. Ignoring the gap. Or, carefully run a router along the joint with the tip of a pointed round over bit to create a small reveal.

-- - Dave ; Austin, TX


11 replies so far

View hotbyte's profile

hotbyte

989 posts in 2812 days


#1 posted 05-03-2017 08:22 PM

On issue #1, I’m wondering if there is anyway to peg it from the bottom side that would still allow expansion of top. You would need someway to elongate the peg hole on table tongue which is captured inside the breadboard groove. Maybe you could route out an access area on bottom, create elongated hole, glue in fill block with standard hole for peg. By doing a non-through peg from bottom it would basically be hidden.

One the router slipup notch, could you make corners rounded or chamfered (from plan/top view)? It might not fit into table style as well as sharp corners but would eliminate the notch.

View LDO2802's profile

LDO2802

130 posts in 266 days


#2 posted 05-03-2017 08:40 PM

Flip it longways so the nick is on the bottom of the other side then glue scrap in to it and cut it off.

View MashMaster's profile

MashMaster

125 posts in 2496 days


#3 posted 05-03-2017 08:43 PM



Flip it longways so the nick is on the bottom of the other side then glue scrap in to it and cut it off.

- LDO2802

It is glued in place so I can’t flip it. :-(

-- - Dave ; Austin, TX

View jerryminer's profile

jerryminer

802 posts in 1277 days


#4 posted 05-03-2017 09:01 PM

So the breadboard end is not pegged or anything?—just glue in the center?

Is the stepped key still removable? Maybe you could deepen the slot there and get a floating tenon in behind, with a slotted hole for a peg?

A small V-groove at the joint line is probably a good idea—will disguise the tiny gap.

For the nick, I think either of these two options is reasonable:

1. Cut off 1/2”

2. Patch in a “dutchman”—or epoxy fill—and recognize that it will show but will not offend.

-- Jerry, making sawdust professionally since 1976

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MashMaster

125 posts in 2496 days


#5 posted 05-03-2017 09:33 PM

The breadboard is pegged in the center. I thought about doing that to the end keys, they are still removable. maybe that would work. deepening the slot will be a lot of work with a chisel but probably the only option for that.


So the breadboard end is not pegged or anything?—just glue in the center?

Is the stepped key still removable? Maybe you could deepen the slot there and get a floating tenon in behind, with a slotted hole for a peg?

A small V-groove at the joint line is probably a good idea—will disguise the tiny gap.

For the nick, I think either of these two options is reasonable:

1. Cut off 1/2”

2. Patch in a “dutchman”—or epoxy fill—and recognize that it will show but will not offend.

- jerryminer


-- - Dave ; Austin, TX

View pintodeluxe's profile

pintodeluxe

5464 posts in 2649 days


#6 posted 05-03-2017 09:47 PM

Maybe I missed it, but what type of joint did you use for the breadboard?
For instance is it traditional individual mortise and tenons, one long integral tenon, or floating spline?

For me this is key information in determining the next step to correct it.

It may not be fixable if there are no pegs on the outer breadboard. Usually you need pegs in slotted holes (or a spring joint) to secure the outer edges. Even once you have it right, there is no guarantee it will stay that way.

If the light colored keys aren’t glued in, you could cut the joint open with a circular saw and edge guide (gasp, I know), then create a spring joint on the breadboard part. Beg, borrow, or rent a Festool Domino and re-assemble the joint with glue on the center couple Dominos. Leave the outer Dominos dry.

When you clamp the center glueup, it will force the ends closed because of the spring joint.

As far as the nick in the breadboard, I would just rip both breadboards a little narrower and eliminate the defect. It looks like you have plenty of width to work with.

-- Willie, Washington "If You Choose Not To Decide, You Still Have Made a Choice" - Rush

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MashMaster

125 posts in 2496 days


#7 posted 05-03-2017 10:53 PM

There is a floating tenon glued in the center and a shorter tenon the runs the length of the breadboard stopped short 2” from each side. The center tenon is pegged.


Maybe I missed it, but what type of joint did you use for the breadboard?
For instance is it traditional individual mortise and tenons, one long integral tenon, or floating spline?

For me this is key information in determining the next step to correct it.

It may not be fixable if there are no pegs on the outer breadboard. Usually you need pegs in slotted holes (or a spring joint) to secure the outer edges. Even once you have it right, there is no guarantee it will stay that way.

If the light colored keys aren t glued in, you could cut the joint open with a circular saw and edge guide (gasp, I know), then create a spring joint on the breadboard part. Beg, borrow, or rent a Festool Domino and re-assemble the joint with glue on the center couple Dominos. Leave the outer Dominos dry.

When you clamp the center glueup, it will force the ends closed because of the spring joint.

As far as the nick in the breadboard, I would just rip both breadboards a little narrower and eliminate the defect. It looks like you have plenty of width to work with.

- pintodeluxe


-- - Dave ; Austin, TX

View JayCee123's profile

JayCee123

196 posts in 601 days


#8 posted 05-03-2017 11:05 PM

Hi Mash-

I’d just rip the breadboards to get rid of the nick.

If the tabletop was important enough to me, I’d cut off the breadboard ends, cut new tenons and dados, and provide a hole/peg at the middle and at each end of the breadboard. Thats a minimum of three holes, but you’ll need more pegs depending on the width of the table top. The middle peg hole should be drilled to accommodate the peg, through both the breadboard and the tenon. The peg should be glued into place, some glue on the tenon at that point wouldn’t hurt. The end pegs are a little different. The holes in the breadboard should be sized to accommodate the peg, but the hole through the tenon should be slotted (elongated) along the length of the tenon. To determine the size of the elongated slot, you’ll need to consider the wood species and the width of the top. When your drilling for the pegs, clamp the breadboard tight to the field, drill your holes, remove the breadboard and then elongate the end peg holes in the tenon. When you drive your end peg in place apply glue to the top portion of the peg just before its driven into final position, such that the peg is only glued to the breadboard and not the tenon. Also apply a small amount of glue to the hole in the lower portion of the breadboard, so that once the peg is driven into position the peg is only glued to the breadboard. The tenon needs to be able to slide along the peg and the breadboard to accommodate seasonal movement … and the table top field will move !

Heres a picture of a table top made from Purpleheart for the field and the breadboard ends. Its decades old and has been through many seasonal changes. The top is only about 15” wide and has only 3 pegs in each breadboard, one in the middle and one at each end. When it was originally assembled the breadboard and the field were flush. During the winter the field shrinks and the breadboard is over an 1/8” beyond the field at each end. During the summer the field expands and eventually aligns with the breadboard ends. This picture was just taken, and you can see that the field has yet to expand to meet up with the breadboard end, but by August it will be even with the breadboard ends, just like last year :)

View TungOil's profile

TungOil

746 posts in 331 days


#9 posted 05-04-2017 06:49 PM

If I understand correctly you have floating tenons glued in the center only. I think this makes the fix pretty easy, but maybe not what you want to hear. If it were me I’d cut the current breadboards off and make new ones. That will fix both issues. You will have to recut the mortises in the table but that’s straightforward and hidden, and make new tenons and breadboards. Better to do it right than be sorry …

-- The optimist says "the glass is half full". The pessimist says "the glass is half empty". The engineer says "the glass is twice as big as it needs to be"

View SignWave's profile

SignWave

440 posts in 2871 days


#10 posted 05-04-2017 09:07 PM

I’d cut off the breadboard end, not only to fix the issues, but to replace it with a piece that doesn’t have a knot/branch so close to the joint. If that gap bugs you, that knot/branch area is going to continue to give you problems because it won’t move linearly as it expands and contracts due to moisture.

I can see that the table top a rustic style (which I like), but you can still plan around the knots by not putting them so close to an area that you want a tight joint.

For this wood, I think a v-groove at the joint line is probably a good idea.

-- Barry, http://BarrysWorkshop.com/

View Loren's profile (online now)

Loren

9624 posts in 3484 days


#11 posted 05-04-2017 09:49 PM

I think you could cut off the end with a circular
saw and fence (or track), then joint the breadboard
end slightly hollow, recut the loose tenon mortises
and test fit. As mentioned above, the knot in the
existing stock is an issue.

To get this fitted nicely is really a job for hand planes.

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