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Forum topic by unclearthur posted 05-02-2017 07:16 AM 696 views 0 times favorited 13 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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unclearthur

121 posts in 1622 days


05-02-2017 07:16 AM

I need to get my first dust collection system beyond a broom and shop vac. I was planning on purchasing the Grizzly G0440 2 HP cyclone as it seems to get good reviews and I’m happy with my other Grizzly stuff. Its $1.250.

But then I was looking at the Grizzly G0548ZP 2 HP canister collector which when combined with a Super Dust Deputy} is only about $700.

I think a similar comparison could be made on other models / systems ….. it seems that you pay a big premium for an integrated cyclone vs adding on the stand-alone separator to an (apparently) similarly sized 1 stage collector.

I’ve never used any of this sort of stuff so don’t have any feel for it. Would there be a significant, real-world performance difference between the two setups – or are you paying extra for the convenience / compactness?

Thanks for any comments.


13 replies so far

View Redoak49's profile

Redoak49

2890 posts in 1823 days


#1 posted 05-02-2017 10:56 AM

Did you compare the specs? You really need to look carefully.

The big thing is to compare the impeller size. The cfm rating appear over rated which is typical. However, one of them has a performance curve in the specs.

One has an impeller which is 12-3/4” versus 14-1/2” for the other.

The big thing maybe that one is portable and can be moved around while the other is not.

View Fred Hargis's profile

Fred Hargis

4756 posts in 2328 days


#2 posted 05-02-2017 11:18 AM

If you have identical blowers on a cyclone versus the bag system, the cyclone will always pull less air (at least until the bags clog) because they introduce a lot of drag on the air flow. Most of them will have larger motor/impellers for the same CFM…..but like redoak said it’s hard to ferret that out because the CFM numbers are generally about as accurate as the 6.5 HP your shop vac has. With a cyclone (in theory) you are paying for a design that keeps your filters clean, hence you always have max air flow, as opposed to a bag/canister DC which has the filters generally clog over time and reduce that flow. Opinions vary so broadly on dc issues that getting consistent advice is impossible. Check the Pentz site and maybe some books like Sander whathisnameski and go from there. Opinions on boards like this are good as well…just varied.

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

View Carl10's profile

Carl10

68 posts in 291 days


#3 posted 05-02-2017 03:45 PM

As Fred and Redoak mentioned your are not comparing the same things. The canister “2HP” Motor draws 9A typical for a 2HP. The quoted CFM is showing what the blower is capable of doing (no bags or filters), Compare this to the cyclone which is rated “2HP and it draws 14A (more than most 3HP motors) and it measures the CFM at the input of the cyclone. The bag DC is designed to have debris pass the blade before separation (requiring a larger housing) while the cyclone fan passes the air after cyclone separation. Two different blade and housing designs. So you will probably want a 3HP canister DC and expect the CFM to drop at least 30% due to adding the SDD. Which will probably be closer to the 2HP cyclone performance wise.

I am looking at pairing a 3HP blower directly to the SDD XL and adding 2 Donaldson filters.

Hope this helps and let us know what you end up doing.

Carl

View rwe2156's profile

rwe2156

2710 posts in 1315 days


#4 posted 05-02-2017 07:10 PM

It depends on what you’re collecting, your layout, and your expectations. IOW you mention you want to sweep up less shavings. Protect your lungs with a mask rather than relying on DC.

Learn the basics you can get bogged down by all the scientific stuff.

My advice is:

1. Use a cyclone or other separator if possible. Unless you are not generating much, it is extremely handy to be able to dump a bin.

2. If you use a filter, go for the canister if you value your lungs. If possible, bypass the filter altother and vent outside (this will depend on your neighbors, and whether you think make up air is necessary).

3. Don’t undersize your ducts! A lot of guys (myself included) have designed systems that choke down performance with undersized ducts. Any blower >2HP needs 6” ducts as the mains.

4. Don’t try to collect hand tools. Use a shop vac for router tables, sanders, miter saw, etc.

5. Keep your highest dust producers (drum sander, bandsaw, etc) close to the blower as possible.

-- Everything is a prototype thats why its one of a kind!!

View pintodeluxe's profile

pintodeluxe

5459 posts in 2648 days


#5 posted 05-02-2017 07:23 PM

The GO440 will win every day in a real-world test. My friend has one of those and it is a beast.
There is actually a lot of engineering and testing that goes into each well-made cyclone.

When you slap one together, you get what you get. There are no guarantees.
I’m all for tinkering, but as a satisfied wall-mounted cyclone user, I think you will be happier with the GO440 or similar.

-- Willie, Washington "If You Choose Not To Decide, You Still Have Made a Choice" - Rush

View LDO2802's profile

LDO2802

128 posts in 265 days


#6 posted 05-02-2017 08:22 PM

I would say it depends on how much sawdust you are producing. I don’t do it for a living, so it is a weekend thing. I bought a grizzly 1/2 horsepower and hooked it up to a trash can lid cyclone on an aluminum trash can. The only downside I have is that the exhaust on my dewalt planer blows faster than the collector can suck, so it raises the cyclone and blows dust out the side! haha. I need to upgrade to a 1-2hp.

View unclearthur's profile

unclearthur

121 posts in 1622 days


#7 posted 05-03-2017 12:12 AM



It depends on what you re collecting, your layout, and your expectations. IOW you mention you want to sweep up less shavings. Protect your lungs with a mask rather than relying on DC.

Learn the basics you can get bogged down by all the scientific stuff.

My advice is:

1. Use a cyclone or other separator if possible. Unless you are not generating much, it is extremely handy to be able to dump a bin.

2. If you use a filter, go for the canister if you value your lungs. If possible, bypass the filter altother and vent outside (this will depend on your neighbors, and whether you think make up air is necessary).

3. Don t undersize your ducts! A lot of guys (myself included) have designed systems that choke down performance with undersized ducts. Any blower >2HP needs 6” ducts as the mains.

4. Don t try to collect hand tools. Use a shop vac for router tables, sanders, miter saw, etc.

5. Keep your highest dust producers (drum sander, bandsaw, etc) close to the blower as possible.

- rwe2156

Thanks, I do get most of that and I have done some research; I’m just wondering how, for practical purposes, an integrated cyclone like the 440 stacks up (all other things being equal) against adding on the Dust Deputy to a similarly powered 1 stage machine – a messier but cheaper option.

I am curious though ….. why do you say to use a shop vac for router tables, sanders etc rather than the DC?

View ArtMann's profile

ArtMann

683 posts in 650 days


#8 posted 05-03-2017 01:00 AM

I retrofitted a Delta 1.5 hp single stage dust collector with a Super Dust Deputy and it reduced the air flow by maybe 30 – 50 percent. It does a great job of keeping my filter clean and it makes dumping the sawdust easier so I put up with it. If I didn’t already have a single stage collector, I would never buy one with the idea of retrofitting it. My new shop will be equipped with a real cyclone.

I will offer one more bit of advice. If you buy the Oneida SDD, do not buy any adapters from them. They are not specially made for the SDD even though their sales people will tell you they are. They are the exact same thing you can buy from Home Depot or Lowes for half the price. The adapters won’t even fit on the inlet or outlet directly. You have to modify them and use miles of duct tape or flex pipe to make it fit.

View TungOil's profile

TungOil

743 posts in 329 days


#9 posted 05-03-2017 01:00 AM

good advice above. You are making the classic mistake that everyone makes on DC. You select the DC last- not first.

1) Design your shop layout including where you want each tool and how you expect to run the ductwork

2) Know the minimum CFM requirements for each tool you own. the manufacturer will have these numbers. then scale them up 1.5x or more so your system actually works.

3) once you have the layout and ductwork path you can calculate the pressure drops in the branches. You need to know the number of elbows, lengths of hose and pipe, etc to do the calculations with some accuracy.

4) this will tell you the CFM you need at a specific pressure drop- you can then get the fan curves from the manufacturer of the DC you are looking at to be sure it really has the guts to do the job. factor in some loss of efficiency due to clogged filters/bags and leaky piping. The DC will probably be larger than you think.

These guys have a good primer on DC design: www.airhand.com

good luck!

-- The optimist says "the glass is half full". The pessimist says "the glass is half empty". The engineer says "the glass is twice as big as it needs to be"

View unclearthur's profile

unclearthur

121 posts in 1622 days


#10 posted 05-03-2017 01:26 AM



good advice above. You are making the classic mistake that everyone makes on DC. You select the DC last- not first.

1) Design your shop layout including where you want each tool and how you expect to run the ductwork

2) Know the minimum CFM requirements for each tool you own. the manufacturer will have these numbers. then scale them up 1.5x or more so your system actually works.

3) once you have the layout and ductwork path you can calculate the pressure drops in the branches. You need to know the number of elbows, lengths of hose and pipe, etc to do the calculations with some accuracy.

4) this will tell you the CFM you need at a specific pressure drop- you can then get the fan curves from the manufacturer of the DC you are looking at to be sure it really has the guts to do the job. factor in some loss of efficiency due to clogged filters/bags and leaky piping. The DC will probably be larger than you think.

These guys have a good primer on DC design: www.airhand.com

good luck!

- TungOil

Actually, I did sort of go through these 4 steps, but there is a lot of different opinions on what the minimum airflow should be, the pressure drops due to various piping are crude estimates, the flow curves / specs from manufacturers are suspect, etc and even the health effects of dust are uncertain. So its not all science. With that in mind I decided the G0440 was probably overkill for me in reality (but probably woefully insufficient according to some websites like Pentz) ...... and was ready to press the button on that but got to thinking $1,250 really …... wouldn’t the 1 stage 2 HP unit with a dust deputy accomplish more or less the same thing for less money? So I wanted to feel people out on that ….. seems like people think the integrated units are actually worth it. Too bad ….. I had some ideas on how to spend the $500 I was going to save ….

View rwe2156's profile

rwe2156

2710 posts in 1315 days


#11 posted 05-03-2017 01:56 PM


Thanks, I do get most of that and I have done some research; I m just wondering how, for practical purposes, an integrated cyclone like the 440 stacks up (all other things being equal) against adding on the Dust Deputy to a similarly powered 1 stage machine – a messier but cheaper option.

I am curious though ….. why do you say to use a shop vac for router tables, sanders etc rather than the DC?

- unclearthur

Some of this really boils down to trial an error. For example, when I expanded my shop, I knew I wanted to go to a cyclone and bigger ducts. I planned on getting a 3HP blower but very difficult to find just a blower. So I hooked up my 1 1/2 Jet (1100CFM) just to see if it would work, and it does. Even with a SDD. I will collect my TS which is a 25+ foot away.

I find a shop vac has more suction I guess? That plus, its a pain to run ducts to every thing.

BTW the blower is vented to the outside I think this make a huge diff in performance.

-- Everything is a prototype thats why its one of a kind!!

View brtech's profile

brtech

1005 posts in 2757 days


#12 posted 05-03-2017 02:13 PM

What is your goal? Clean shop or the ability to work safely without a mask?

If it’s a clean shop, I think you would be very happy with the HF “2HP”, upgraded with a Wynn filter, and an SDD.
That will save you a lot more than $500. Wear a mask when you work, and everything will be great. The smaller Griz is better, but the price-performance is a whole lot worse. With the SDD, you won’t get much dust in the Wynn, and it will be easy to empty the chips.

If you want to work without a mask, then I think you really should be thinking at least 3HP, a much bigger impeller, and a well designed cyclone. I think Pentz is probably right, and >700 CFM at the tool is needed to control fines. Of course, you don’t have to guess, you can measure. Get a Dylos and check to see what your air is like.

View LDO2802's profile

LDO2802

128 posts in 265 days


#13 posted 05-03-2017 08:37 PM


It depends on what you re collecting, your layout, and your expectations. IOW you mention you want to sweep up less shavings. Protect your lungs with a mask rather than relying on DC.

Learn the basics you can get bogged down by all the scientific stuff.

My advice is:

1. Use a cyclone or other separator if possible. Unless you are not generating much, it is extremely handy to be able to dump a bin.

2. If you use a filter, go for the canister if you value your lungs. If possible, bypass the filter altother and vent outside (this will depend on your neighbors, and whether you think make up air is necessary).

3. Don t undersize your ducts! A lot of guys (myself included) have designed systems that choke down performance with undersized ducts. Any blower >2HP needs 6” ducts as the mains.

4. Don t try to collect hand tools. Use a shop vac for router tables, sanders, miter saw, etc.

5. Keep your highest dust producers (drum sander, bandsaw, etc) close to the blower as possible.

- rwe2156

Thanks, I do get most of that and I have done some research; I m just wondering how, for practical purposes, an integrated cyclone like the 440 stacks up (all other things being equal) against adding on the Dust Deputy to a similarly powered 1 stage machine – a messier but cheaper option.

I am curious though ….. why do you say to use a shop vac for router tables, sanders etc rather than the DC?

- unclearthur

Plus those smaller things don’t have a four inch exhaust port. The shop vac is good for a quick hookup because it fits. LOL

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