LumberJocks

Yeah, Dust collection, this is what I am thinking...

  • Advertise with us

« back to Safety in the Woodworking Shop forum

Forum topic by BillyDoubleU posted 04-30-2017 11:09 PM 2395 views 1 time favorited 37 replies Add to Favorites Watch
View BillyDoubleU's profile

BillyDoubleU

152 posts in 279 days


04-30-2017 11:09 PM

Ok guys (and gals), I suppose I will pick up some DC “system” before I get the jointer.

I am in the process of building my benches and got a nice coat of dust even after blowing out the garage. It was late so I had to use the low setting on the blower… either way ;)

So my wife has asthma and was complaining about the dust. This is for just a bit of work and ripping some pine 23/32” plywood… so nothing crazy…

I told her I could get a DC or some sorts and she suggested I invest in one. It’s a 2 car garage but I don’t want to wall mount a DC or the cost of a DC worth mounting. I still need to get my electric fixed up as well.

After much reading on here and other places I am looking at the Grizzly G1028z2 as a portable DC which can service 3 machines at once and run on standard 110v outlets at 1 1/2hp stating 1300CFM for $425.

The Delta 50-760 boast similar performance but looks like it may be hard to come by now.

Next I read up on ceiling hanging Air Filtration systems and while I read up on the JET AF-1000 being the “best” at $300 I can get 2 Wen systems for $200. I’d like the Grizzly as I seem to be drawn to their products… They have a few models as well. The Heavy Duty double for $335 down to $170 for a model very similar (same as) the Wen…

But all that I read is that all of these types of ceiling hanging systems are about the same minus paint…

I like the idea of 2 AF’s hanging up scrubbing the air for a price less than 1 of the bigger named companies. I also read that there or 2 camps on this.

Camp 1- continuous use while working and to run for a few hours after working.

Camp 2- only use the AF after work is complete.

So with both of those in use I figured why not also have some simplicity added in, after all, this is all about air exchange right…

Why not 1 or 2 of these bad boys ;)

I do live in Southern AZ after all and need some moving air :D

And after all the work and in between I also take a moment to blow out the space as well with a trusty leaf blower

In my construction days the day wasn’t done until the slab was blown out…

So also remember, the only stationary item in my shop will be the Miter Saw station. Everything else is on wheels.

I can park the DC next to the Miter Saw and leave that hooked up and also have hoses running to 2 other machines that will have to be moved from their place of storage anyway.

Thoughts?

-- "But I’ve bought a big bat. I’m all ready you see. Now my troubles are going to have troubles with me!” ~ Dr. Seuss


37 replies so far

View clin's profile

clin

751 posts in 834 days


#1 posted 05-01-2017 12:04 AM

Concerning the room filters, I have a Jet and like it a lot. I’m not familiar with the others, But you are right that that they are simple. The Jet has three speeds and a remote. It also has a 2-stage filter. The first is essentially a furnace type filter. The second is the 1 um and is sort of like a pleated bag.

Just make sure the others have something like that. The first filter will fill up pretty quickly. But can be easily cleaned by vacuuming in place or taking out an blowing. The inner fine filter stays pretty clean.

As to when to use them, I run it while working (important) and after. The Jet has a timer (1, 2 and 4 hours ?). So that is real handy. I use a Dylos particle counter and I find this filter makes a huge difference.It brings the count down quickly, but it is exponential. Meaning, it drops the most at first and less and less as the amount of dust drops. Though an hour has always brought it down to very near 0.

I see no advantage to waiting until you are finished. Once the dust is in the air, the sooner you run the filter the better. Else the dust just settles on surfaces. So might as well run it while making the dust.

If you haven’t yet, you should read up on the information Bill Pentz has put together. I think you’ll find info that you could apply outside your shop given you wife’s asthma.

http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/

Some think he is an alarmist, but he has data to back what he says.

Keep in mind that the CFM rating of most (probably all) DC systems will overstate what you will actually get. This is not because they are misleading, it’s just they can only rate what the DC will do by itself. They have no way to know how much ducting etc. you’re going to connect to it.

Bill believes you need 1,000 CFM at the tool to have truly effective dust collection, and to get this in a real system, you need 3+ HP. He didn’t make this up, so I believe he is correct.

However, as mentioned I use a Dylos particle counter and I only have a shop vac. So yes plenty of fine dust gets in the air, but the room cleaner does a good job. I do wear a respirator while working and until the room filter brings the dust level low.

Even on my shop vac, I use a Dust Deputy cyclone, a bag in the vac, and a HEPA filter in the vac. That way my shop vac actually filters dust and is not a dust pump.

The Grizzly system and any of the other bags systems like this are not ideal because the bags are not real fine filters. Adding a cyclone will help. It is surprising how fine a dust they collect. But, in the end, you still need a 1 um (preferable 0.5 um) to really get the air clean.

A great option is to vent the DC outside if possible. If you don’t have to recirculate the air, you don’t need to filter it very finely. But of course, you need replacement air. If you live up north, then in the winter that replacement air is going to be very cold. Similarly, since you live in AZ, you’re talking very warm air in the summer. Though unless you are using AC in your garage, drawing in outside air is still likely to help cool.

Though honestly, I couldn’t possibly work in a garage in southern AZ in the summer. I live in Albuquerque, probably a good 10-15 degrees cooler than you, and that’s too hot for me. I lived a year in Phoenix, so I understand hot.

Have a good look at Bill’s web site and take care of your wife. Dust is something we all need to be aware of, and it is critical to someone with respiratory issues.

-- Clin

View ajshobby's profile

ajshobby

87 posts in 2146 days


#2 posted 05-01-2017 12:47 AM

I have the jet 1 1/2 hp similar to the above and use the wen filter with the super dust deputy. I ended up venting outdoors and the wen is in the corner collecting dust (ba da ding). Also, I have the jet ceiling air filtration. I found keeping the main run under 15’ and running the air circulation all the time gets me the best result of keeping the dust to a minimum.

The largest upgrade I made to dust collection however was my Fein vac and running all my smaller tools off it. Sanders, jigsaw, tracksaw, and basically anything that isn’t on my jet dust collector.

I also found that I had to modify alot of tools to get the best results. The effort was worth it. So there is a bit more (in my opinion) than just hooking up the tools.

AJ in mpls

View JBrow's profile

JBrow

1274 posts in 758 days


#3 posted 05-01-2017 01:07 AM

BillyDoubleU,

It makes sense to me to collect dust and debris where it is generated and thus keep as much dust out of the air as possible. Therefore adding a dust collector to the shop is a good idea. The difficult-to-overcome problem associated with collecting dust at the tool is that only a portion of the generated dust is collected. The two major factors that affect the efficiency of collecting dust at the tools are the negative air pressure (CFM) generated by the dust collector at the dust port and the effectiveness of the dust hood/shroud at the tool to capture and direct dust into the dust collector.

I believe that the ideal dust collector is one which draws in a high volume of air, maintains that high volume air flow over time, and separates fine dust particles before the dust collector returns air to the shop. A cyclone added to the dust collector is perhaps the best way to protect the filters from clogging and thus extend the time between filter cleaning (filter cleaning can result a fair amount very fine dust being released into the air). A clogged filter will reduce air flow at the tool. A sub-micro filter will do a good job keeping very fine dust, once captured, from being released back into the shop. In the end it is a decision more often than not driven by the budget.

I do not have an air cleaner hanging in my workshop, although one day I may. When that day comes I will make moving a high volume of air, removing very fine particles from the air, and filter cleaning and maintenance my primary requirements.

The leaf blower, like a pair of fans, would probably be very good and economical solutions if work is performed only when the garage doors are open. Otherwise, this constant moving of air would probably keep fine dust air borne, where it can migrate into the house.

View TungOil's profile

TungOil

747 posts in 333 days


#4 posted 05-01-2017 01:46 AM

JBrow is correct, your primary approach to DC should always be to capture the majority of the dust at the source. The better you are able to do this, the less you will need the other solutions. Skip using fans or leaf blowers, all that will do is put settled dust back into the air.

Everyone wants to start DC design by picking the collector first, but that is backwards. First you need to understand the CFM requirements for the machinery you have (and expect to add), then figure out the pressure drops associated with the hose or ductwork you plan to use to connect to your collector. Once you understand the CFM and pressure drop requirements, you can select the correct dust collector for the job.

check out the very good writeup at www.airhand.com

-- The optimist says "the glass is half full". The pessimist says "the glass is half empty". The engineer says "the glass is twice as big as it needs to be"

View BillyDoubleU's profile

BillyDoubleU

152 posts in 279 days


#5 posted 05-01-2017 02:04 AM

Man, in reading some of Bill Pentz’s site I’m gonna blow my house up and waste my money on anything less than a 3+ hp system.

In reading the electrical section I’m gonna burn out my motors and start a fire there too…

My cousin is an electrician and I’m gonna have him wire up some 120v and 240v outlets. But now I’m worried about that too :/

-- "But I’ve bought a big bat. I’m all ready you see. Now my troubles are going to have troubles with me!” ~ Dr. Seuss

View BillyDoubleU's profile

BillyDoubleU

152 posts in 279 days


#6 posted 05-01-2017 03:42 AM



Concerning the room filters, I have a Jet and like it a lot. I m not familiar with the others, But you are right that that they are simple. The Jet has three speeds and a remote. It also has a 2-stage filter. The first is essentially a furnace type filter. The second is the 1 um and is sort of like a pleated bag.

Just make sure the others have something like that. The first filter will fill up pretty quickly. But can be easily cleaned by vacuuming in place or taking out an blowing. The inner fine filter stays pretty clean. I believe they all run a 2 stage filter process.

As to when to use them, I run it while working (important) and after. The Jet has a timer (1, 2 and 4 hours ?). So that is real handy. I use a Dylos particle counter and I find this filter makes a huge difference.It brings the count down quickly, but it is exponential. Meaning, it drops the most at first and less and less as the amount of dust drops. Though an hour has always brought it down to very near 0.

I see no advantage to waiting until you are finished. Once the dust is in the air, the sooner you run the filter the better. Else the dust just settles on surfaces. So might as well run it while making the dust. I can agree with that.

If you haven t yet, you should read up on the information Bill Pentz has put together. I think you ll find info that you could apply outside your shop given you wife s asthma.

http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/

Some think he is an alarmist, but he has data to back what he says.

Keep in mind that the CFM rating of most (probably all) DC systems will overstate what you will actually get. This is not because they are misleading, it s just they can only rate what the DC will do by itself. They have no way to know how much ducting etc. you re going to connect to it.

Bill believes you need 1,000 CFM at the tool to have truly effective dust collection, and to get this in a real system, you need 3+ HP. He didn t make this up, so I believe he is correct.

However, as mentioned I use a Dylos particle counter and I only have a shop vac. So yes plenty of fine dust gets in the air, but the room cleaner does a good job. I do wear a respirator while working and until the room filter brings the dust level low.

Even on my shop vac, I use a Dust Deputy cyclone, a bag in the vac, and a HEPA filter in the vac. That way my shop vac actually filters dust and is not a dust pump.

The Grizzly system and any of the other bags systems like this are not ideal because the bags are not real fine filters. Adding a cyclone will help. It is surprising how fine a dust they collect. But, in the end, you still need a 1 um (preferable 0.5 um) to really get the air clean. I believe these systems can be upgraded with a smaller micron bag.

A great option is to vent the DC outside if possible. If you don t have to recirculate the air, you don t need to filter it very finely. But of course, you need replacement air. If you live up north, then in the winter that replacement air is going to be very cold. Similarly, since you live in AZ, you re talking very warm air in the summer. Though unless you are using AC in your garage, drawing in outside air is still likely to help cool.

Though honestly, I couldn t possibly work in a garage in southern AZ in the summer. I live in Albuquerque, probably a good 10-15 degrees cooler than you, and that s too hot for me. I lived a year in Phoenix, so I understand hot. It gets a little sweaty… but the garage doors are open. :)

Have a good look at Bill s web site and take care of your wife. Dust is something we all need to be aware of, and it is critical to someone with respiratory issues.

- clin


-- "But I’ve bought a big bat. I’m all ready you see. Now my troubles are going to have troubles with me!” ~ Dr. Seuss

View BillyDoubleU's profile

BillyDoubleU

152 posts in 279 days


#7 posted 05-01-2017 03:45 AM



BillyDoubleU,

It makes sense to me to collect dust and debris where it is generated and thus keep as much dust out of the air as possible. Therefore adding a dust collector to the shop is a good idea. The difficult-to-overcome problem associated with collecting dust at the tool is that only a portion of the generated dust is collected. The two major factors that affect the efficiency of collecting dust at the tools are the negative air pressure (CFM) generated by the dust collector at the dust port and the effectiveness of the dust hood/shroud at the tool to capture and direct dust into the dust collector.

I believe that the ideal dust collector is one which draws in a high volume of air, maintains that high volume air flow over time, and separates fine dust particles before the dust collector returns air to the shop. A cyclone added to the dust collector is perhaps the best way to protect the filters from clogging and thus extend the time between filter cleaning (filter cleaning can result a fair amount very fine dust being released into the air). A clogged filter will reduce air flow at the tool. A sub-micro filter will do a good job keeping very fine dust, once captured, from being released back into the shop. In the end it is a decision more often than not driven by the budget.

I do not have an air cleaner hanging in my workshop, although one day I may. When that day comes I will make moving a high volume of air, removing very fine particles from the air, and filter cleaning and maintenance my primary requirements.

The leaf blower, like a pair of fans, would probably be very good and economical solutions if work is performed only when the garage doors are open. Otherwise, this constant moving of air would probably keep fine dust air borne, where it can migrate into the house.

- JBrow

The cyclone added seems like an easy to do thing. I’ll have to look more into that.

And yes, the door are always open when the tools are on.

-- "But I’ve bought a big bat. I’m all ready you see. Now my troubles are going to have troubles with me!” ~ Dr. Seuss

View BillyDoubleU's profile

BillyDoubleU

152 posts in 279 days


#8 posted 05-01-2017 03:52 AM



JBrow is correct, your primary approach to DC should always be to capture the majority of the dust at the source. The better you are able to do this, the less you will need the other solutions. Skip using fans or leaf blowers, all that will do is put settled dust back into the air. With open doors and the fans pointed out would it not blow the dust out? That’s my thinking at least.

Everyone wants to start DC design by picking the collector first, but that is backwards. First you need to understand the CFM requirements for the machinery you have (and expect to add), then figure out the pressure drops associated with the hose or ductwork you plan to use to connect to your collector. Once you understand the CFM and pressure drop requirements, you can select the correct dust collector for the job. If a 3 hp system is the minimum do the 1, 1 1/2 and 2 hp system provide any help or is this based on the tool only? Which tool produces the most CFM/Pressure drop requirements. Table saw, miter saw or something else like a sander? Either way you’d then have to plan for that tool which should then cover all the others. So like with all power tools… Get the biggest one (you can afford) :)

check out the very good writeup at www.airhand.com

- TungOil


-- "But I’ve bought a big bat. I’m all ready you see. Now my troubles are going to have troubles with me!” ~ Dr. Seuss

View BillyDoubleU's profile

BillyDoubleU

152 posts in 279 days


#9 posted 05-01-2017 03:56 AM

What are the thoughts on 2 Air Filters scrubbing the air?

Or one larger one?

If one exchanges air the air in a 20’x20’ shop 8 times an hour and 2 are affordable would they combined exchange twice the amount of air in the same hour?

-- "But I’ve bought a big bat. I’m all ready you see. Now my troubles are going to have troubles with me!” ~ Dr. Seuss

View clin's profile

clin

751 posts in 834 days


#10 posted 05-01-2017 03:56 AM

If you’re going to have the garage doors open when you work. I’d go with a cyclone and no bag on the DC and just vent it outside.

Also, figure out a way to create cross ventilation and simple draw in a lot of outside air and vent the entire shop. That will do more to keep dust down than running a room filter. But you have to get the airflow correct and you still need to move a lot of air.

However, I’m sure there will still be times you’ll work in the shop without doors open etc. When doing that, a room filter is a good thing to have.

-- Clin

View BillyDoubleU's profile

BillyDoubleU

152 posts in 279 days


#11 posted 05-01-2017 04:23 AM

Unfortunately my garage opens to the south and the wind often come from the E/SE so creating a flow would require me to open the back end of the garage but that would lead into the house. I’ll have to look into this venting out of the workspace.

I am can usually blow it out and have the wind pick it up and blow it way to the west. Usually… But of course it depends on the time of the year.


If you re going to have the garage doors open when you work. I d go with a cyclone and no bag on the DC and just vent it outside.

Also, figure out a way to create cross ventilation and simple draw in a lot of outside air and vent the entire shop. That will do more to keep dust down than running a room filter. But you have to get the airflow correct and you still need to move a lot of air.

However, I m sure there will still be times you ll work in the shop without doors open etc. When doing that, a room filter is a good thing to have.

- clin


-- "But I’ve bought a big bat. I’m all ready you see. Now my troubles are going to have troubles with me!” ~ Dr. Seuss

View BillyDoubleU's profile

BillyDoubleU

152 posts in 279 days


#12 posted 05-01-2017 04:35 AM

Grizzly also makes a 3hp mobile DC with with 2 bags, the G1030Z29 that rates 2300 CFM and runs on a 240v. This is around $500. Not a deal breaker but it’s around 2’x4’ in footprint….

They actually have a few 2 and 3hp DC’s but they all run on 240v and they are all at or under $500’ish.

The problem becomes the footprint.

I am gonna have a few 240v outlets installed… Maybe I need another :\

Now looking at these, some have canisters and some have bags…

-- "But I’ve bought a big bat. I’m all ready you see. Now my troubles are going to have troubles with me!” ~ Dr. Seuss

View Kelly's profile

Kelly

1821 posts in 2782 days


#13 posted 05-01-2017 05:46 AM

I have three dust collectors and I can tell you, up front, the claim that little Grizzly can tend three tools is the stuff pipe dreams are made of. One of my collectors is a three horse and I refuse to tackle more than one unit at a time. Dust is collected from my table saw at two points and that pushes the three horse, four bag system to the limit.

In the end, games manufacturers play with claims aside, bigger is better. In the end, big is more versatile. It can handle the stationary sanders, the planer or jointer, the band saw or even the sanding station.

. . . and cyclones are my friends. Run a collector and, in short order, the filter(s) are going to load and the efficiency is going to drop. As such, I’ll take a little drop up front, since I can hold that level long time.

View pauljuilleret's profile

pauljuilleret

98 posts in 1491 days


#14 posted 05-01-2017 09:59 AM

Look at harbor fright I got an e mail the other day and their 2 H P model was down to $179.00 it is identical to the Grizzly one pictured at the top of this post.

View Fred Hargis's profile

Fred Hargis

4758 posts in 2331 days


#15 posted 05-01-2017 11:19 AM

If your wife has asthma I would suggest you set your sights higher than the first thoughts you expressed. Lots of good advice above, all of which I agree with. DC is extremely underrated bu most folks in terms of importance.

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

showing 1 through 15 of 37 replies

Have your say...

You must be signed in to reply.

DISCLAIMER: Any posts on LJ are posted by individuals acting in their own right and do not necessarily reflect the views of LJ. LJ will not be held liable for the actions of any user.

Latest Projects | Latest Blog Entries | Latest Forum Topics

HomeRefurbers.com