constructive criticism OR pandora's box

I’m inclined to agree with you Leon.
We are either TFC (Trolling For Complements) or genuinely trying to instruct or learn at these forums.
I often see posters who only post in order to blow their horns and never post a compliment or criticism in the interim.
Perhaps the simple phrase ”comments welcomed” at the end of a project would ease the transition.

p.s. it would also be nice if whem you do ask a question that the poster takes the time to answer you.

Bob

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

Right on.

-- Check out my new website! http://www.blakeweberwoodworking.com

thats a slippery slope.

I decline to offer advice as feathers get bent out of shape.

Cheers

-- http://www.furnituremann.ca/

You have a good point, but I have a personal rule that I won’t offer advice unless I’m asked.

-- Gary, East TX -- The longest journey begins with a single step.

I offer an example of a thread from another forum that has a different focus, but is similar in many ways. This post is one of my all time favorites. Those folks who do wood bending and use epoxy will find it interesting.

Hi! Wood_Ogre here

It was posted by a guy with decades of experience. The responders gave him compliments, but also offered criticism and advise. I think the discussions that resulted really helped my understanding of the topic.

I would like to see more of this type of discussion here on this site. I have been a LumberJocks member for only three days, and my initial observations match those stated by Leon above.

-- Scott, San Diego

Personally I would be grateful for a gentle nudge in the right direction. Once my shop thaws out and I start to make and post some projects I will ask for truthful critiques. My goal is to become a better woodworker and any help is to my benefit. I unfortunately have no woodworking clubs or affordable classes near me so it is my hope that I can pick up some skills from this forum.

-- Frank Auge---Nichols NY----"My opinion is neither copyrighted nor trademarked, but it is price competitive."

I’m new here, and hesitant to comment..But of course I will anyway…it is a slippery slope..Don’t like it : SAY NOTHING..that’s what my mom told me…hmmm…and who are we to “constructively critcize?” Jeepers..camera angles can affect the balance of a piece…style and design are in the eye of the beholder…I do not like Queen Anne..I love shaker..it’s a preference issue…so …I think it’s a pandora’s box

I agree with your post Leon. But unless I see something that I feel really needs correcting I am hesitant to offer advice. If there is an obvious safety and health concern, for example, that I see in the post I feel that a comment should be suggested. But whether the project should be dovetailed or have box joints in place of the butt joints that is the poster’s choice and I really shouldn’t be commenting on it unless requested.

I am generally open and have a personal rule that if you don’t want me to tell you my opinion do ask. (I had to check to see if you had a question about this in your entry- so I am safe in giving you my opinion).

-- With God's help all things are possible- even woodworking. Woodworking is not just a hobby, it is an (expletive deleted) expensive hobby.

I think the progress blogs are the best place for open critique or suggestions. Once it is on the project page it is usually a done deal. Critique then could be requested.

-- -John "Do I have to keep typing a smiley? Just assume it's a joke." www.flickr.com/photos/gizmodyne

I’d like to add this. If I post a project and I mention that the dovetails aren’t real crisp (for example), or the finish didn’t come out as well as I had hoped for, then I don’t need a half a dozen guys piling on. If I don’t mention an obvious flaw then perhaps I do need a nudge.

I had to go check out the box in question. I liked the observations or critiques, but I liked the non-matching dovetail even more. Taste is a funny thing. We tend to discount stuff just based on taste or what is fashionable. Rustic or modern they both have very high quality pieces and others that are cheap junk. What I like are when you give me alternatives. Our “critique” here usually comes in the form of a question. “Why did you stagger your dovetails?” I have seen a lot of questions asked here that I’ve been able to learn from.

-- http://www.woodsongsfurniture.com

I try to include a bit of constructive help when it looks warranted, but I feel I have to be very subtle about it – like walking on egg shells – because of the prominent disdain for anything “negative” that might come out of CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM.

To be honest with you, I hate walking on egg shells.

It is so much easier to be open and forthcoming and sincere and to tell someone, “Hey, you’re doing really good on this part of your project but on your next project you might want to consider focusing a little more on this other part of it.” I think it impedes the learning aspect of posting projects to your peers. I liken it to having kids play non-competitive sports. It doesn’t teach them a whole lot about the really real world (i.e. LIFE) unless they’re going to get into some field where it doesn’t matter how good you are; where everyone gets paid the same and has the same benefits no matter how high or low your skill level and knowledge. I don’t really think those jobs exist. And if they did, I certainly wouldn’t want one of them.

Who are we to criticize?

Maybe we are a woodworker who has made the same mistake before and can offer some advice on how to correct it or avoid it in the future.

Maybe we are someone who specializes in carving and can offer advice on how to get a crisper line or how to make an object look more life-like.

Maybe we have been cutting mortise and tenon joinery for 25 years and can tell you what you need to do to make the joint come together a little more snug or fit a little better to create a stronger joint.

Maybe we have a degree in art and can give you information on how to improve the aesthetics of your project from a designer’s point of view. Sometimes it doesn’t take but a little tweak to get your project from OK to GREAT!

Maybe we do woodworking for a living and can explain from our business experiences what sells and what doesn’t.

Maybe we restore antiques for a living and can help you improve upon your finish by telling you where you’re doing it wrong and how to do it right.

Is any one person all of these things? Probably not. But I guarantee you with over 3000 members on this site, there is at least one person who is. Why not be willing to learn from them? They don’t even have to be an expert for you to learn from them! You just need to be willing to learn!

(Conversely, just because someone has been doing something for 25 years doesn’t mean they are the person to listen to. Maybe they’ve been doing it wrong for 25 years because nobody ever bothered to tell them otherwise! How would you feel if you’d been doing something the same way for years and years because nobody ever told you it was the wrong way or an inefficient way or that there was a better way?)

It doesn’t take a list of rules to follow – it just takes some common sense. Don’t be hateful; offer helpful advise. That’s it. We’re all adults here (I’d even include the Teenage Woodworker in that category) – we should be able to figure out if the advice we’re going to offer is constructive or not. If it isn’t, keep it to yourself. If it is, then what’s the harm in saying it?

I’ll concede the point that there might be some woodworkers out there who are simply posting projects to brag about what they’ve done – and that’s perfectly fine if they want to do that. However, I refuse to believe that is why EVERYONE posts projects. I think there are people out there who want to LEARN and GROW as woodworkers through peer review and evaluation. You can’t do that if all anyone tells you is how great a job you’re doing and nobody ever points out an aspect of your project that could use some improvement.

It seems like a lot of trouble to edit my own profile and say I want constructive advise and then to include that comment at the end of every project or else to indicate I DON’T want any criticism on each project and then make sure I check someone else’s profile before I make a comment on it to be sure I don’t ruffle any feathers or step on some sensitive toes.

Maybe we could clear it up with two areas of the website for posting projects – call one the “Brag Board” and the other the “Learning Board”. If you just want to show pictures of your work, then post it on the Brag Board. If you want to show pictures of your work and get friendly advice or criticism from other woodworkers as to what you can do on future projects to improve, then post it on the Learning Board.

I’ve often felt that whole aspect of woodworking is left out of this site, much to the detriment of the majority of the members here. It was one of the first things I wrote about as a new Lumberjock over a year ago (Blog #63). I still feel the same way, but… I quickly realized it was a lost cause trying to get everyone to open up to the idea of learning through peer evaluation. Honestly, that makes me sad. Why would you not want to learn from others?

Personally, I want to grow as a woodworker. I want to improve my skills and knowledge base and I want to know when I’m doing something wrong or when I need to work on my design or technique. I post a project here and there when I feel like it (and remembered to take pictures), but more often than not I show my projects to friends of mine who are woodworkers and artists and have degrees in art and art history. I can get honest and helpful advice from them as to where I need to focus on improving my woodworking skills. And because I expect them to be critical of my piece, their praise on the parts I’ve done well carries a lot more weight, too.

-- Ethan, http://greystonegreen.blogspot.com/

Bravo Ethan!

I am new here. My profile says “I would like to get feedback about the designs and chronicle the building of the projects.”

I meant it when I joined.

I don’t have a text library of cut and paste praises.

When I was in college, we used to help each other study. If one of us didn’t get it there was always someone who did. We looked at each others projects and picked the best parts for our own learning experience. that’s what I want from a forum.

Websers definition of Forum → “a medium (as a newspaper or online service) of open discussion or expression of ideas”

That’s what it’s all about.

-- Scott - Chico California http://chicowoodnut.home.comcast.net

That was a mouth-full Ethan….... and I agree with every word of it. When I discovered this site I knew that if I began posting projects there were going to be comments and not all would be good. I’ve only been woodworking a couple years. I’m a retired newspaper man… so you can imagine that I didn’t get many good comments during those years. My grandfather told me a long time ago….. “if no one is complaining….... no one is reading the paper”. Maybe that applies here too. I welcome comments…... but I think we all can do it in a way that helps, instead of hurts.

-- JJ...... I guess you could say I'm a 54 year old "juniorjock". — Make things with wood.

I really consider each and every one of you as a friend and I always try and welcome any critique as a learning experience. We learn something new everyday guys! But we all have to remember that there is “destructive critism” as well as “constructive critism”. So we need to think about what we say before we hit the “Post this reply” button.

-- Bob Vila would be so proud of you!

Well said Dadoo.

-- JJ...... I guess you could say I'm a 54 year old "juniorjock". — Make things with wood.

Just one more thing while all this is on my mind….......... What’s up with these posts that are only two or three words when commenting on a project…..?

-- JJ...... I guess you could say I'm a 54 year old "juniorjock". — Make things with wood.

i dont care to post anything negative on anyones project and if i did it would be through a p m . 2 reasons .
if you pm someone and tell them about something that dosent look right or whatever the guy either considers it helpful and learns from it or is offended by it . either way it gets deleted . what you post on someones project page stays there . he might one day have the whole family over for thanksgiving and want to show them his page . i work sometimes for people who only own vacation homes here and have e mailed a link to my project page so they could look at some of my work or something similar to what they want done . so thers other things to consider when posting . personaly im with gary k if someone wants my help all they need to do is ask . some have and i gave it my very best

juniorjock , i think the short comment are about the time it takes to do an evaluation . when i joined i was welcomed by a bunch or folks . i felt i needed to give back by welcoming other folks , and i did every one . and also tried to comment on as many projects as i could . within two months i was coming home and finding two full pages of profiles of people that joined that day ! theres no way i can keep up even to just type welcome on each . and the projects are going by so fast now i dont even get to see some of them .

I see what you’re saying mrtrim….. and by the way…. thanks for the welcome.

-- JJ...... I guess you could say I'm a 54 year old "juniorjock". — Make things with wood.

I had an on going e-mail correspondence with a saddle maker in Australia. he kept asking me questions about how to do things. I answered each one honestly. I didn’t really think much of his work but didn’t say anything. he sent over photos of a saddle he was really proud of. It had basket stamping running every which way. I wrote and suggested he might be happier with the next one if he got all his basketstamping running the same direction. End of conversation!!! I guess he didn’t want any constructive criticism. As to the short compliments; the best compliment I ever received was “Pretty work!!”. I just don’t have time to be long winded. There are too many projects now.

-- Thos. Angle

Thanks to everyone for their comments. I’m still trying to digest all of it.

I don’t want to discount the positive comments but for me they lose their luster after a while. When I posted my first project, I got a number of very nice positive comments and it felt great. I had confirmation that I was actually a woodworker and what I do is appreciated. As Sally Field said “You really like me”.

After a while though, I noticed that all the projects were getting good reviews. So I got to thinking that if I’m going to get better, I could use some constructive feedback and that led me to my post today. BTW – It still feels good to get the positive comments. So don’t let up on the positive stuff.

One thing I had NOT considered was the issue that mrtrim brought up about this going “on your permanent record”. I would NOT like that. I want to get the feedback, apply it or ignore it and then burn the constructive criticism. Don’t know how we could do that. The private message would work but I think there is value in an open discussion as well.

Maybe we could have these discussions in the forum section and NOT in the projects area. We could create a forum just for Critiques and Constructive Criticism. This forum could be for members only and we could still send our friends and family to the public projects area.

It is clear from the posts that this is a very personal choice and critiques and criticism should only be offered to those that specifically ask for it.

Thanks again for all you comments.

-- Leon -- Houston, TX - " I create all my own designs and it looks like it "

Leon,

I think the guidelines in your OP are real good and should work quite well if that’s how it ws done.

When I read your original post, I related back to a friend of mine who created the acronym “NPGJ”
for the Penturners forum because all folks were telling one another was just that—Nice Pen, good job.
He, and I, wanted constructive criticism so we could grow our talents.

I don’t post much here but I usually ask for comments and criticism when I do.
If someone asks for constructive advice, I’d offer it IF I have something constructive to offer.

Cheers,
Gary

-- Gary, Florida

the same discussion has taken place many times in the photography world.
For me, it just made sense to post a statement with your project: Constructive Criticism welcome!
Then we know; we don’t have to remember who just wants to post for their own goals, or those who just want kudos, or those who want to learn from others….

-- ~ Debbie, Canada (http://www.execulink.com/~yohan)

MsDebbieP, I agree. “critiques and criticism should only be offered to those that specifically ask for it.”

I think that mrtrim had a very good point, however, about NOT wanting these critiques and criticisms included with your project ( so your friends, family, and customers don’t have to see it).

I think I’ll experiment with a post in a forum asking for a critique of one of my projects and see what happens.

-- Leon -- Houston, TX - " I create all my own designs and it looks like it "

Leon, I think you have the right idea. If you do that I will definitely critique your work for you. I don’t mean in a derogatory way, but honestly. If you are asking for an honest opinion I think you will get it and we can all stay friends. It just might start a great forum and not cost any of us customers.

-- Thos. Angle

Great thread, great subject! I try to be objective in my posts and projects – I know I’m new, I know I’m learning and the main reason I’m here is to get input from others that are more experienced. I expect some constructive criticism.

I post most all of my projects – whether they came out perfect or not. I take pride in everything I do but I try to see where I can improved as well. Take a look at some of my projects – you’ll see comments like, “This came out great but I could have done that better…” I think your approach is excellent as well. Don’t just say “this is wrong” but offer some true advice to help improve.

One thing I’ve told a lot of my off-line friends about LJ, through the cooperative knowledge of the others on this site I’ve been able to learn in a few months what I imagine would take a couple years on your own.

-- Tim D. - Woodstock, GA

Oh yes.. good point about the projects vs. blogs – especially if someone is using their Projects section for business purposes. Very good point

-- ~ Debbie, Canada (http://www.execulink.com/~yohan)

Slippery slope time…if people ask AND ONE TRULY has a very legitimate reason to say KINDLY ..hey, I made one something like that and I put a square foot on mine….hmmm, but to openly criticize a person or his/her work JUST to criticize and Puff up one’self??? NO NO, a thousand times no..design degree, or no design degree…other sites do this and it gets ugly, nasty and horrible….I left those and came here, hoping for civility..Make a seperate section IF YOU MUST…

-- Turn & turn somemore

Everyone makes good points.

If I don’t like something I won’t post a comment, unless it’s a beginner posting one of their first projects, and
then I say something nice as a form of encouragement. Now just because I don’t like something doesn’t
mean that it’s bad, but maybe it’s just not style that I like. Everyone has their own preferences, otherwise
we’d all be making the same thing.

As a rule I don’t offer advice unless I am asked. I will offer critiques only for those who ask.

As for ”What’s up with these posts that are only two or three words when commenting on a project…..?”

I’m with Thos. I don’t have time to be long winded, unless I have something that I think needs to be said.
Besides I’m not the fastest typist in the world.

-- Gary, East TX -- The longest journey begins with a single step.

Not that there is anything wrong with being long winded…

Have you ever read an article about a movie or book in a newspaper or national magazine? What about a write-up of a play showing at the local theatre or a ballet review? Those are most definitely criticisms (and rarely what one might call constructive) of someone else’s work.

People have critiques of their works published publically all the time for hundreds of thousands of people to see. I bet you’ve even used one of those critiques to help you decide if you want to see a movie or not! If a movie production company stopped making movies just because someone printed a bad review, then I’d dare say we wouldn’t have any movies being made.

Something you (the “collective” you) should keep in mind is that you aren’t the only one who might benefit from a constructive comment on your project! Out of the 3000+ LJ members, how many do you think are lurkers who might visit the site daily or weekly but never post a project or make a comment? (Not that there is anything wrong with that…) Do you think they don’t learn anything because they don’t post a project?

I think they probably still learn a lot by reading blogs and looking at projects to see how other woodworkers have tackled challenges and learned from them. They also learn a lot by reading the comments (e.g. responses, reviews, advice) left on those projects and blogs.

Who cares if a member of your family sees a comment some digital person made on your project from across the country! If you’re the kind of family that is together at Thanksgiving and you are showing them your LJ project pictures, do you really think they’re going to think less of you or your finished piece because of a comment from someone they don’t know?

As far as the possibility of clients viewing critical comments of your work goes… Jackson Pollock received public negative reviews of his works his whole life (I, for one, can’t abide it). Do you think that stopped him from painting? No. Did it stop art collectors from buying his paintings? No. What about Andy Warhol? Same thing – he kept doing his own thing his own way and some people loved it and some people hated it. The people who hated it didn’t just quietly think that to themselves – they shouted it from mountain tops!

So you shouldn’t be worried about a possible client reading a constructive comment about something you’ve done. If they like your works and are interested in having a business relationship with you, then it won’t matter what some unknown (to them) digital person thinks about your project.

I think you have to understand the joys and limitations of an internationally-used website such as Lumberjocks. It is great for meeting woodworkers and learning from the experiences of others and sharing your own experiences for others to use. It is good for showing pictures of pieces you’ve finished to get help and advice from others so you can advance your skills and knowledge. It is even useful for making connections from a business point of view, to some extent.

I don’t think it is a good direct method of generating sales (trying to sell woodworking projects to other woodworkers is called, “Targeting the Wrong Audience”). What all of “that” (blogging, commenting on forums, posting projects) does is get your project and your name and images of your works put out into the digital world for others to see. So people searching Google for something and finding a link to one of your projects on LumberJocks is definitely a possibility and could easily lead to a sale!

That is a little off-topic, though… I think the main thing to keep in mind is that you are posting a project on a website that can be visited from pretty much anywhere in the populated world and it is posted on a website that allows people to make comments to your project. If you are a non-professional woodworker who enjoys blogging and enjoys posting pictures and sometimes gets to make some sales as a result, then you shouldn’t be worried about what one person thinks of another person’s comments to you on that site.

If you are a woodworker with a business and you make your living with that business, then I don’t think you should rely strictly upon the LJ website as a method of displaying a portfolio of your work. You should absolutely spend the time and money to set up a professional site for your business. And you should probably spend the time and money to create a printed portfolio you can carry with you for personal interactions with clients. That way, you can direct your possible clients to a site that is set up and designed specifically for generating sales for your company.

(The OTHER reason I quit writing about the topic of Constructive Criticism is because my fingers kept cramping up…)

But I’m done writing about it. Why don’t we just have a Utopian website where nobody says anything bad and everything is always great and nobody ever learns from their mistakes (or anyone else’s, for that matter)? That sounds just peachy to me.

-- Ethan, http://greystonegreen.blogspot.com/

Thanks for starting this discussion. I for one would welcome constructive comments.

Maybe a trial run is in order…
http://www.flickr.com/groups/ljc/

You’ll need a flickr account (free) and an invite to join. Hopefully keeping the group private will keep some civility.

I like Flickr’s UI. You can leave comments for more global comments and notes which highlight a particular area in the photo.

I made the group private so you’ll have to ask to join. Please send me a note inside flickr that you are a lumberjock and I’ll send the invite.

-- Che.

He who praises everybody, praises nobody.
—Samuel Johnson

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

I am a LJ member because I want to observe and learn. I’m sure most of you (from newbies to season pros) agree with this. I’ve always felt that you learn from making mistakes. The fact is, it’s not likely that your wife, kids, or any other realitive will point out things wrong with a project you’ve finished simply because they don’t have the knowledge to do so or they just don’t want to hurt your feelings. All of us here at LJ have at least some knowledge of woodworking or we wouldn’t be here. That’s why we need to hear the comments…... good or bad. And, to Gary K and mrtrim, I wasn’t trying to stir up anything about the short comments. I was just curious…. I respect both of you just as I do all LJ members. Sorry if I offended.

-- JJ...... I guess you could say I'm a 54 year old "juniorjock". — Make things with wood.

JJ…Being a visual introverted type rather than a verbal extrovert type a 3 word comment from me is like a whole paragraph. Two whole sentences and my typing finger begins to cramp. Three sentences and my brain kinks in and I get real confused!

-- http://www.woodsongsfurniture.com

I definitely fall into the “please give me constructive criticism” camp. While I totally understand why some might want the criticism separate, personally I prefer mine to be right on my project page. That way it is more likely that someone looking at one of my projects could benefit from the criticism as well. The beauty of this (and other) community is that many people can benefit from one persons question being answered or project being criticized.

Maybe Martin would consider an alternative view of the projects without comments. Maybe call it your portfolio. That way you could choose whether you want people to see the comments or not. Just a thought.

-- Tom, Southwest Florida

To be honest, I am sick and tired of getting comments like “nice project”, “pretty cool”, etc. What I want to know is what I could have done better and how to get a better woodworker.

When I look around at people’s projects, I sometimes see things that could be improved, obvious mistakes, or interesting avenues that could be followed. More often than not I move on and never post a comment. As some of the people suggested above, I am all in favor of people putting a special symbol, message or picture if they are interested in constructive criticism. Also, it would be nice if posters would point out what they like and do not like about their projects to encourage people to add their own thoughts.

Sometimes, you just like a project and you can hardly think how to make it better. Being specific in your comments about what you like would be nice as well. This kind of things help people figure out what they do well and what they do not.

Alin

-- -- Alin Dobra, Gainesville, Florida

Thanks for great discussion everybody.

Here are my 2 cents: If you want to get constructive criticism on your project or its specific part JUST ASK FOR IT. It happened numerous times here on LJ (I can find some past projects if you want ;) and it works that way in the real world too. I bet nobody criticize your work constructively if you don’t ask for that.

Tom, portfolio view is a good idea.. I have something similar in the plans. Thanks!

-- Martin, http://lumberjocks.com | My Facebook: http://profile.to/msojka

Wow, what a great discussion, some things I’ve (a newer member) have been wondering about. So, heck let me add my two cents, I’ll try and be short and sweet.

Constructive criticism: I think a separate “Give me comments and advise” section may be a good thing. Not for many of the reasons above, but simply because some of “us” need that expertise and knowledge a lot of you guys have. Please give it to me! I see this website as the perfect opportunity for me to meet new folks, but also to learn from those who have been there done that. Many of us hobby woodworkers don’t have a mentor or boss to help us improve…and who knows if the local woodworking store instructor is giving you the best advise.

The short remarks: Yeah, I thought that at first, but since I joined I’ve tried to comment on all the projects I have at least a little intelligence to say something. Saying that….Guys there are a whole lot of new projects every day and it is hard to keep up. Short is OK, not everybody has that much time…heck I’m having trouble keeping up myself. The way I see it, if they take the time to comment they must see something about it they liked. It’s maybe not the greatest…thing they’ve seen, but must be pretty good. I find most folks who don’t have anything good to say will say nothing at all. So, even something short is a good thing.

One additional comment: I will say most folks have been great about replying with additional information when asked and a big “THANK YOU” from me because I’m learning a lot, and I don’t think anyone has taken offense to the questions. I saw the comment about the box and didn’t think anything about it. It sounded like he was just curious to me on whether it was on purpose or not (sometimes we make mistakes and just like it that way).

I just think a “give me advice” column might work….that is if we have room and can actually do it (meaning the computer/Internet end of it)...Martin you’d have to advise on that.

-- Jim Hallada, Chesterfield, VA

I was not going to comment, but Alin brought up an interesting point . . . how many people are (to use Alin’s words) sick and tired of getting comments like “nice project”, “pretty cool”, etc

In addition to the ”not enough time to type something longer” I personally suffer from the ”I don’t feel I have enough knowledge\skill\etc to add value to someone elses project”

At times the absolute best I can offer is a “nice job” when their project would blow any of mine clear out of the water.

my $0.02

-- The significant problems we face cannot be solved by the same level of thinking that created them

Alin took me up on my offer to have my projects critiqued.

Check out my 2x4 Planter Stand and Planters project.

-- Leon -- Houston, TX - " I create all my own designs and it looks like it "

Very thoughtful critique by Alin.

-- -John "Do I have to keep typing a smiley? Just assume it's a joke." www.flickr.com/photos/gizmodyne

As far as I’m concered,
PUT IT ON DISPLAY TAKE YOUR MEDICINE!
Better our criticisim than a customer or gift recipient.

-- MARK IN BOB, So. CAL

Zuki,

It is fine to say “nice project” but it is better to say what you liked about the project. Saying what you liked is as important as saying what you did not like.

In some of the conferences I send papers to, as a reviewer you have to say 3 things you like and 3 things you do not like about a paper. I think this exercise would be interesting about the projects posted on LJ. Try to think about 3 reasons you like a post and 3 reasons you do not (or think need improvement). I’m sure interesting things are bound to result from the exercise.

Alin

-- -- Alin Dobra, Gainesville, Florida

As Debbie stated the photography world has the same discussion. I am a member of photographycorner.com where there are forum designations for the level of critique you want…..just sharing…..feedback wanted….full critique….This way people can choose what level of feedback they get. I have learned many things on that site as well as passed my experiences onto many thankful people. This type of feedback is essential if you are looking to market any of your goods. Like they say, opinions are like bellybuttons, everyone has one. (clean version) So if you are looking to start selling pieces you want to know what is liked and what isnt so you can have a better chance of selling the items. We here at LJ are all a bit tained since we see the value in quality and appreciate the work that goes into these pieces, but we will still be able to give an indication if something is generally accepted and attractive in the retail market.

My $.02 and it is worth how much you paid for it.

constructive criticism OR pandora’s box

pandora…........why havent I seen a downhill ski slope named Pandora and if there is one I bet its a black diamond

even when you ask….....you dont get much feedback

intimidation and insecurity is the foundation of Pandoras box. I suspect that they are both the same. Is Pandora a guy or a girl?,,,,curious…............or is Pandora an ancient God worshiped by infidels. The whole name or word “Pandora”.............it’s just wrong

Excellence, perfection,,......................they dont exist, and if they do, I have yet to physically shake their hand, they are only words we can strive to achieve by faith, hope, wisdom, knowledge, pioty, grace, and love.

-- http://www.furnituremann.ca/

I’ve made comments before about something that I’m not comfortable about. I’ve even made one tonight. I don’t go all out and say it’s garbage. I keep those comment to myself. Because the project tonight was not garbage. It was great.

I’ve never been a fan of scroll saw work. I’ve used the scroll saw and I’ve seen some work but it’s not something that I’d like to do. But I can appreciate the amount of work that goes into these projects. So I not going to say anything bad about it. So it may be notings or a statement that i appreciate the amount of work that goes into it.

I appreciate all comments. If something is said that I’m not comfortable with on a project of mine I’ll accept it and not get into a shouting match. Nothing is gained from that.

Now everyone is going looking for the comment that I made.

-- What happens in the workshop stays in the workshop. No wait that doesn't sound right. Karson Southern Delaware karson_morrison@bigfoot.com †

interesting idea, tpastore – adding “just sharing | feedback wanted | full critique” dropdown on the new project page and then show this info on the project page.

-- Martin, http://lumberjocks.com | My Facebook: http://profile.to/msojka

Martin,

Make sure that “just sharing” is the default selection, otherwise some people might get more than they bargained for. I wanted something like this for a long time but I never summoned the courage to start the discussion.

Alin

-- -- Alin Dobra, Gainesville, Florida

This is a good topic and the points made thus far are even better. I think all of the points made here are valid and for me it’s easy to see things from both perspectives. Personally I love the idea of having “just sharing | feedback wanted | full critique” pull down options.

But one thing I haven’t seen mentioned actually goes one step deeper. I’ve posted things and recieved feedack (both solicited and not) from members of the group all of which was appreciated and valued. However I may not have agreed with the feed back and posted a response as to why I didn’t think the suggestion would work or didn’t feel that the point made would be an issue.

I know for certain that in at least one instance the member offering the feedback felt as though they had offended me, which could not have been further from the truth. I truly did appreciate the input and opinions, I just didn’t agree with them and responded to their post explaining why I felt that way. The point behind responding wasn’t to start an argument or show any displeasure with their comments, it was about continuing the conversation in hopes that I would learn something.

One thing I think we all need to remember is that conversation is a two way street. One of the main reasons that I joined this site was to interact with other people having interests simillar to mine. I am less concerned about “constructive criticism” from others offending me than I am about my offending them if I don’t agree with what they have to say. So I think it goes a little deeper than offending someone with comments about their work. We also need to think about how we are going to recieve their thoughts about our comments.

When I first joined the site I was welcomed aboard by one of the members who said “You have questions and we’ll answer them, you have answers and we’ll question them.” I immediately thought to myself “I’M REALLY GOING TO LIKE IT HERE”

By the way, the guy that thought he offended me is on my buddy list, I’m on his, and I look forward to everything he has to say.

-- I've cut that board three times and it's still too short!

I like the drop down menu idea for varying degrees of feedback.

I’m one of the guys some are “sick of” that comments in a word or two or three – frankly because I just can’t keep up with the volume anymore. So, with the explosion of participation since I joined, I think if we want deeper feedback, we’re going to have to ask for it in some way.

I’ll ask for critique when it passes muster with my first hand viewing. But, when I see all my mistakes, loose joinery, glue spots in the finish and poor design, yet post it anyway – I want to also have the option to decline to have others pile on with their critiques after I’ve already beat myself down about it. That’s when I need some kind soul to come by and say, “It doesn’t look so bad. I like it.”

-- Paul, Texas

Shaun, you’ve hit what I think is a key issue. If we are going to have constructive criticism, it should be an actual discussion. NOT an argument but a back and forth on the issues and comments. All these comments are actually opinions and we each have our own. I think that is value in sharing our OPINIONS.

Remember the post on the walnut box that started all this? Some people didn’t like the lid because it didn’t have any dovetails. Pesonally I like it just the way it was. Several others didn’t like the unbalanced dovetails but at least one person liked that feature. Because of this dialog, the next time I do a dovetail box, I’ll ponder the pros and cons of dovetails vs lids more seriously.

-- Leon -- Houston, TX - " I create all my own designs and it looks like it "

Excellent point Alin . . . even if I feel I have nothing to contribute because of my lack of experience, I can (and should) point out exacty what I do like.

Martin . . . I like that idea with Alin’s suggestion of a default.

I think this is the most constructive discussion on this particular topic that I have seen on LJs. It has all been brought up before . . . but I think we have gotten somewhere with this one. Tks for putting the spin on it Leon.

-- The significant problems we face cannot be solved by the same level of thinking that created them

Here’s something I’ve noticed and I wanted to see what everyone thought about it. I admit I’m one of the “new guys” on the LJ site and have only posted one project but I’ve noticed that after a project has been posted for a few days, it seldom gets many (if any) comments. We’re adding new members to LJ every few minutes and I think it’s important that the newbies know that their comments are welcome too, no matter how long a project has been posted. I know I’m a little off-base from the original topic but again, these comments could contain likes and dis-likes. And, of course, this goes for the other forums on the site. Just because no one has posted on a subject for 25 days doesn’t mean you can’t jump right in and share your thoughts about it. What do you guys and girls think?

-- JJ...... I guess you could say I'm a 54 year old "juniorjock". — Make things with wood.

I am new as well but I think Leon and Bob2 have a good idea. How are going to get better at what we do if we will not except “Constructive Criticism”. I think it would be helpful if you put on your project “Comments welcome”
Although isn’t the point of this site to get help from other members as long as someone does not get insulting?
The drop down box is also a good idea.
This is an important issue to discuss.

-- Bob K. East Northport, NY

From a design standpoint I will often, get stuck. So my comments are a result of how I approach woodworking and problem solving in general, for better or worse I am just thinkin out loud. Often times the work I see here on lumberjocks, just works. So a simple”good job” is my way of saying, “I wouldn’t change a thing”. As far a comment on quality, fit and finish if you will, that’s a tough one. 3 pictures and a pargraph aren’t really enough for me to make that call. I’ve sat here talking to myself for an hour here on this paragraph alone, I’m not sure if I even remember the topic correctly now, I’m not rewriting this!

-- If knowledge is not shared, it is forgotten.

I couldn’t agree with you more Leon. Actually with the example I mentioned in my last post on this subject, we continued our conversation and the Jock that thought he offended me ultimately ended up turning me on to a different idea that I had not previously considered and if I ever find the time to get back on that project, I’m going to use his idea.

So in that particular case we both walked away from the conversation learning something. If you’re asking me, it doesn’t get any better than that!

-- I've cut that board three times and it's still too short!

This sure is an active post!
Here’s my thoughts:

Unless someone asks for a critique I will not offer my opinion. (I will post a positive comment if I see something I really like or have a real interest in. Mostly to open a dialog with the maker to share info, I still have much to learn, as well as somethings to share)

I will not write anything that is in any way putting the maker down. We all started out with fewer skills & tools than we now have.

Sarcasm has no place in forums such as this. It’s too easy for a comment made in jest to be taken the wrong way.

I , personaly enjoy any praise my peers may offer me, but for some reason, I find it hard to post the simple “good job” or “nice work” It seems disengenuinus to offer bannal praise. I sometimes wonder if , at least some of those “good job” posts are there for no other reason than to raise the number of posts by the one doing the praise. Just my take. . . I’m sure many such posts are heart felt & intended to encourage the maker. Too often I read a post & start to reply but can’t find the right words to praise the work without sounding like a parrot of the other responders, so I back out & keep looking around the site.

There are so many interesting projects posted here, in so many different areas, in so many skill levels, there is always things to admire.

I love them all!

-- http://www.grandprairiewoodworks.com http://www.etsy.com/shop.php?user_id=6453794

Good post Tim.

-- JJ...... I guess you could say I'm a 54 year old "juniorjock". — Make things with wood.

I don’t mind criticsms from some of the great craftsmen here. However I do get a little frustrated when my critic has less projects under his belt and less experience. Hasn’t happened to much here, but i hear it from some neighbors, friends and family. My response, If you coold do better please show me.

I for one welcome any comments good or bad, if offered honestly. There is no point in tip toeing around. (we’ll just get sore toes!) I know that from a construction standpoint some of my early projects aren’t great, but from a design or creativity standpoint they are worth sharing. I see no point in only sharing the top 1% of our work. I would like to be able to learn and grow, and expect the same from most of us. I have received some good honest criticisms before and don’t feel bad about it – when it pertains to good construction or helpful tips. Design, well that’s all a matter of taste and needs to be remembered as such.
In college when we critiqued each others work we had to say something we liked about it too. We all have something to learn from each other, and sometimes it is best just to keep your mouth shut. – a fine line to tread for sure – especially considering that conversation is primarily relayed visually, secondly through tone and expression and finally, least of which though the actual words.
In the good old days a “looks good” was great, because to say nothing was either to seem to have no opinion or dislike… but a “I like the …. because…” is much better.
Or I wonder how it would look with (longer legs, this or that change) might be an improvement, might not.

still, we have so much to give and share with each other. If we share, we all win.

-- I am always doing what I cannot do yet, in order to learn how to do it. - Pablo Picasso -- http://blanchardcreative.etsy.com -- http://snbcreative.wordpress.com/

Wow! A million responses to read through – and I read every one of them because I think I was the guy who made the first of the “constructive criticisms” that are at the heart of this thread.

I find myself treating others the way I would like to be treated – that is to give me a good honest, kind critique of my work. Even though I’m my own harshest critic, I need other pairs of eyes and others’ perspectives in order to improve. Everything I post is open for critique and always encouraged. I have been on websites where all the woodworkers wanted were “attaboys” – Sawmill Creek for example. I pretty much got chased off there years ago because when some of those guys asked for comments, they didn’t really want any other than “wow, awesome work”, even if it wasn’t. Personally, my own work isn’t all that great, and the attaboys don’t help anything other than my ego, rather what I need is “thats nice, but how about this..”

I apologize if I broke an unspoken rule, but everyone seemed to understand that I was offering both admiration and suggestions for small changes that might have helped. Someone else then did the same thing – and noticed something that I completely missed (and agreed with) – thats why I need every pair of eyes on my work, and not just “great job” comments (but I like them just fine).

On another site I frequent – World of Woodturning, the top names in the business regularly critique each others’ work, and if you post there, you’d better believe you are going to get tons of helpful hints from everyone. In effect, posting a pic there is basically stating “here, tell me how I can improve this.” My work has improved from THOSE kinds of sites, not from the other type. I think this site is a good blend of both, and that the lumberjocks here can take, and probably appreciate helpful comments.

But I won’t do it again if its not requested. On WOW, they used to add – “critique” to their posting if thats what they wanted, but now pretty much that is understood.

-- Just another woodworker

no worries, schwingding, you’re alright. (and thanks for the heads up about that woodturning site. I NEED help in that area.

-- I am always doing what I cannot do yet, in order to learn how to do it. - Pablo Picasso -- http://blanchardcreative.etsy.com -- http://snbcreative.wordpress.com/

Mjlauro, sometimes the truth comes from the mouthes of babes.

If you are new to wood working PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don’t keep your mouth shut just because your new! I have learned the most from sticking my neck out and offering my opinion good or bad. Sometimes they thing I didn’t like was intentional and I learned why it was done. Sometimes it was unintentional and we both learned something. Either way I learned to see better.

Just because you don’t have the technical skill to produce flawless joinery doesn’t mean you haven’t heard a good tip or two. Just because you can cut perfect dovetails doesn’t mean that having the half pins different sizes looks good.

http://flickr.com/groups/ljc/

-- Che.

I like to have constructive criticism. What I have a problem with on some forums (I haven’t seen it here at all) is there are some self-appointed experts that like to shoot down whatever the new guy’s suggestions might be. Some will even gang up on you like they are blindly dedicated to a certain select few on the site. Especially when it comes to finishing. I always like to back up what I’m saying with what guys like Flexner, Jewitt and Desdner (sounds like a law firm) say about it. But I guess it is to be expected in almost every forum so I take it with a grain of salt and keep posting.

When I first posted here I put a picture of a low boy that I had just finished up and the subject of how I did the rear legs came up (I brought it up – I wasn’t really happy with them and wanted others opinions) and I got nothing but good opinions. One even said they looked ‘clunky’ with the front legs. I didn’t take offense at all -and as a matter of fact I have to laughingly admit, the more I look at them the more they DO look clunky. I’m going to cut them off now and put the cabrioles on the rear like I should have done in the first place :). Thanks for the nudge whoever it was.

-- Sam

For some, the idea of “constructive” criticism is difficult to grasp. There can be a thin line between “constructive criticism” and just plain criticism. For some, both giving and receiving the criticism, that line is easily crossed. If someone doesn’t have thick skin, they may not be able to handle the criticism. Should they learn to deal with that better? Maybe, but I’m not a psychologist, nor did I play one on TV.

I am thrilled with the idea of being able to choose your level of critique. This way, those with thin skins can mark it so, and those who honestly want feedback on where they goofed and how to fix it can get that as well.

As for short answers, I give those a good bit. Why? Because I like the piece. Sometimes, I don’t even know why I like it, I just do. If a piece doesn’t “speak” to me on some level, I usually just don’t say anything. I’d love to give constructive criticism, but frankly the work I’ve seen on this site has been beyond my ability to give any meaningful feedback on!

-- "Give me your poor tools, your tired steel, your huddled masses of rust." Yep, I ripped off the Statue of Liberty. That's how I roll!

I think everybody needs to read my signature

-- Illegitimis nil carborundum - Don't let the bastards grind you down http://woodworkingtipsfrompop.com

I had the same thoughts about the LJ site before I joined, Sam. And like you, I’m very happy to say that everyone is treated pretty much equal here. As a new guy it didn’t take long to start learning about all the skill levels on this site. There are many. But from everything I’ve seen, all members treat each other with respect. As far as the “constructive” criticism….... I think we are our own worst critic. I’ve been doing things to my house for about 30 years and every time I finish a project a friend or family member will come to visit and start telling me what a great job I did and how good it looks….. then, I start pointing out places where I screwed up…. places they would have never noticed. I think we’re all like that to a point. I think we all want to be pointed in the right direction sometimes. The bottom line is…. if you do a project, and you’re satisfied with it….... that’s all that matters. No matter what anyone says.

-- JJ...... I guess you could say I'm a 54 year old "juniorjock". — Make things with wood.

Lumberjocks is my favorite site. I was telling my wife & daughters about it last night and they looked at me like I was an idiot. Lumberjocks? Lumberjocks? Come on dad – you’re making it up, right? :)...

-- Sam

I thought it went without saying that all projects posted were subject to constructive criticism. However, there are a few things that go through my mind before I offer such comments. If I see a project that I think has lots of room for improvement, I first ask myself:

1) Does this person have other projects posted so I can evaluate his or her level of skills? Maybe the poster is doing the best he can do for right now.

2) What is the poster’s tone in their narrative of the project? If they obviously are very proud of their project and think it came out perfect, I see no reason to be cruel by pointing out flaws. On the other hand, if they express that they had some difficulties, and things didn’t go exactly as they intended, I take that as an open invitation to offer criticism and advice.

3) Are my criticisms really woodworking-related, or are they just a matter of personal taste? If a project shows a really high level of skill, but I don’t like the design chioices, who am I to tell the poster another finish, edge profile, etc. would have looked better. (I do this occasionally, but alwauy qulaify that it is only personal preference.)

As far as Alin’s dislike of short comments, I like to acknowledge the time and effort that went into a project, but there are certainly not enough hours in the day to give detailed critiques of every project. So if I say nothing more than “Beautiful piece!”, it means I think it is a beautiful piece. If any of you jocks, besides Alin, would rather I ignore your fine efforts than offer a 2 or 3 word pat on the back, let me know. I’ll make a list.

(Alin, I’m just kidding. I will continue to say “Beautiful piece!” when you deserve it, whether you like it or not.)

<g>

-- Charlie M. "Woodworking - patience = firewood"

charlie , in my opinion that was perfectly said . the only time ive been disappointed in this site was the last time this very thread was started , it got kinda ugly . the first thing that came to my mind was “ok here we go ,i knew this site was too good to be true ” . i think bro. odie was saying exactly the same thing leon said but his presentation was pretty crude . kudos to leon . his presentation was well done and brought about much more thoughtful responses . ive learned a great deal from this site in only 126 days . about all of this i learned thru the blog section not the project section . i really enjoy the how to type blogs and videos , and would like to see more of this . and they are less likely to get out of control with bantering and such . if you main goal is to have your peers evaluate your project how about posting it first in a blog and asking specifcally for that , and you can offer more pics from different angles to give the critic a better look at it . ive seen the critique thing get very ugly on other sites and would really hate to see that happen here . this is a really great community ! just another 2 scents

p s i think everyone should read charlies comment again !

I really like your suggestion about “blog first” for comments. very good idea mrtrim.

-- JJ...... I guess you could say I'm a 54 year old "juniorjock". — Make things with wood.

One other point I forgot to mention:

I’ve spent quite a bit of time on this site in the past year+, and I have yet to see anything but friendliness and willingness to help. Everybody has their own style of commenting on projects, and people have different expectations with regard to what they want to get out of posting their projects, but I haven’t seen a mean-spirited word written here. As long as we can keep up this track record, I think this will continue to be a great place to share and learn.

-- Charlie M. "Woodworking - patience = firewood"

I agree with Dadoo and several other folks who have posted on this issue. Charlie makes some great points as well! I have had a few critiques or “changes” another member would’ve made about some of my projects. I practice a set of principles that enables me to treat others with the same tolerance I would expect for myself. Not everybody does this and I can see where some may have their feelings hurt after spending a certain amount of time and doing the best they could on a project, only to be told it could be better. IF I were to critique a flaw in another member’s project I would probably comment about how nice it is. I then might mention that I plan on doing that project, only I’m going to try using a different method. This approach would let the member know there is a different way to do the project. Just my thoughts and I hope they didn’t hurt anyones feelings!!! LOL

-- --Chuck

Well, I’m kinda put out that you mentioned Dadoo before me, Chuck, but I’ll try not to let it turn into a full-blown resentment. :-)

-- Charlie M. "Woodworking - patience = firewood"

As a newcomer to this site I want to compliment all for the excellent, reasoned, and civil discussion. I look forward to learning from and contributing to the quality community that is Lumberjocks.

And – thanks to the many who took the time to welcome me recently.

As what Charlie says ‘it goes without saying’. By posting your project you are inviting for comments. Every project posted is fair game.

This is a site open to everybody. Heck anybody can post a comment. Even a non woodworker. Even anybody who does not know what wood is. Everybody has his own take on a posted project. The important thing is being able to pick the “INTELLIGENT” comments. It is up for the poster to distinguish which comments are intelligent enough for him.

One caveat in posting a comment on a project though. There is a very thin line between constructive criticism and ridicule. So let us all be sure of what we all have typed before we hit that “Post this reply” button. One misplaced punctuation mark and it is done.

-- "Real jocks do it on a bench"

I am pretty new to this site but the one main thing that I have noticed is how willing everyone seems to be to help out! I have yet to get a project going since I now have a 3 month old son that takes up alot of my time and keeps me from finishing up the shop area. Once I do though I welcome any and all criticism on my projects once they are posted. I just hope that anything I do complete is worthy of the craftmanship that I have witnessed on this site

-- Oscar in Missouri

As a relatively new comer to LJ I have realized my limitations after exposure to such a large number of expert and highly experienced wood workers. It may be due to lack of proper equipment, scanty training facilities, nonavailability of certain materials etc. but fact remains that I have lot of things to learn. I therefore highly support availability of constructive criticism when asked. Within the short period that I have been a member I am improving on possessing better tools, maintenance of existing tools and on applying various ideas in my work. I really owe a great deal to LJ family and hope I will be a better woodworker if I get constructive criticism from experienced members of LJ. I do have skill but it has to be harnessed properly
Sharad

-- patanjali

Wow!

What a bunch of reading we have here! ... on a good subject!

I agree with Ethan & others 110%!

We will learn from our mistakes as well as from mistakes of others… if we are not to know about the mistakes of others, that leaves us to only books, videos, and us MAKING the mistakes to learn by.

I don’t want to make any more mistakes than I have to… each one costs money…

I am always open to criticism… I welcome it… Just leave out the bad four letter words. :)

-- Have Fun! Joe Lyddon - Alta Loma, CA USA - Home: http://www.WoodworkStuff.net ... My Small Gallery: http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/showgallery.php?ppuser=1389&cat=500"

You’re right Joe. The way I figure it, that’s why we’re here…... To Share and to Learn. I’ve only been a LJ member for 2 weeks but I’ve learned more in that time here than I have anywhere else since I began working with wood the way I am now. Everyone knows you learn from making mistakes, but it’s a lot better if you can learn before you make the mistake. As an example, I had no idea that there was a better way to cut a table leg until I saw Gary K’s comments on “The Proper Way to Cut Wood for Table Legs”. I’d never thought about it the way he explained it. It helped me a lot.

-- JJ...... I guess you could say I'm a 54 year old "juniorjock". — Make things with wood.

yes we can !

-- work from your heart and your spirit will live forever

I am with Garyk & Mrtrim Leon. I don’t see any point in critising someones work.
If they ask for an opinion then constructive criticism is fine but it should be kept within an area of respectibility.
After all beauty is in the eye of the beholder, what looks good to some does not always please others. People starting off in woodworking should especially be encouraged, they will learn by their mistakes just like we all have done & are still doing. If I see something that is not to my taste I would prefer not to comment rather than say something that could offend.

-- Grumpy - "Always look on the bright side of life"- Monty Python

After much healthy discussion, I’ve come to the following conclusions regarding “constructive criticism”.

1) Some people are perfectly happy with the attaboys and don’t want any criticism. Constructive or otherwise. We should respect their wishes and NOT offer any critique of their work.

2) Others would like “constructive criticism”. By that, I mean, comments with value. Feedback that they can use to improve their woodworking.

BOTTOM LINE : It looks like the burden should be on the project poster. When you post a project, explicitly ask for input on any or all of the asthetic/execution/techincal aspects of the project. If you want to limit comments to dovetail spacing ( and not the lousy job you did on the dovetails), then just ask for opinions on dovetail spacing. Open ended requests may solicit responses that do not give you the feedback you need and my offend you.

Responders should limit their comments to what was asked.

Hopefull, posters (that want comments) will get feedback that will help them improve their woodworking skills and responders will have some guidence in how to respond.

In the process we will all become better woodworkers and NOT be offended.

Thanks to everyone that took the time to join in this discussion.

-- Leon -- Houston, TX - " I create all my own designs and it looks like it "

I thought I had previously responded to this post but I guess I screwed it up.

My thought was rather than offer a criticism you could subtly invite the person to contact you through your signature. Dan Walters changes his between posts so it is not difficult.

“I really like to talk marquetry” “I’ve got a great dovetail technique to share” “My box joint jig is ideal”
or whatever you know that could help someone else. Then they would know they could contact you if they wanted some input on whatever was being criticized.

Lee

-- No piece is cut too short. It was meant for a smaller project.

Someone once told me there is no such thing as “constructive criticism, criticism is criticism”, and there may be some truth in that, although the point is well taken.

It is a very slippery slope but one that needs to be addressed and has been here very well.

As a new member, I mainly am just looking around now, getting to know things, folks etc. There is definitely more than one way to skin a cat, and what may work for someone may not for another due to one or many reasons. It could be that the person that built the project doesn’t have the equipment to do it using another method, it could be that they did it the only way they knew how, skill level, it could be due to physical limitations, and any number of other reasons. As long as the comments aren’t personal, they shouldn’t be taken offensively but there’s is the rub, what one person may take offense to, another may not (is the glass half full or half empty?).

Since personalities are so different there may not be any way to avoid conflict from time to time. Maybe the best way is to drop the person an e-mail, requesting any info that was missing or needed clarification and then respond explaining another method etc. that way is isn’t in the main post. You will also get a feel for that person and determining if they are thin skinned or taking your comments as a way for them to improve.

From what I have seen so far, I truly don’t think anyone here would intentionally be critical of a post here based on abilities, etc. but not everyone may think that way. Everyone can learn from others, no matter how long they have been doing something.

Just my 2 cents.

Dave

-- Upstate New York -- Do what you love and never work a day in your life.

”Someone once told me there is no such thing as “constructive criticism, criticism is criticism”, and there may be some truth in that, although the point is well taken.”

IMHO, Examples:

criticism is criticism…. “I think the Top looks like hell… legs are out of balance… etc.” ... just talk… just opinions… Does not help anyone at any time.

BUT

“constructive criticism”... I think the Top looks like hell and would looked better if you had filled the grain pores with something like Wunderfil, etc. If you had filled the pores, it would have been 100% better!
... is constructive… teaching… helpful… and will make the person better.

Big difference… :) :)

IMHO…

-- Have Fun! Joe Lyddon - Alta Loma, CA USA - Home: http://www.WoodworkStuff.net ... My Small Gallery: http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/showgallery.php?ppuser=1389&cat=500"

Leon, I think that you summed it up perfectly!

-- Martin, http://lumberjocks.com | My Facebook: http://profile.to/msojka

“beauty is in the eye of the beholder”

you got that right, you should see my nephews new wife!!!!........He must have had a momentary lapse of sight and judgement.

-- http://www.furnituremann.ca/

I agree with Leon’s First post.

-- Have Fun! Joe Lyddon - Alta Loma, CA USA - Home: http://www.WoodworkStuff.net ... My Small Gallery: http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/showgallery.php?ppuser=1389&cat=500"

LMAO @ roman!

-- I've cut that board three times and it's still too short!

I hate to bring this up again, but I feel like I need to. I still believe that there are some LJ members who are simply trying to see how many posts they can get…... most of the posts are simple…. “nice job”...... “great work”... etc. if that’s what they want to do that’s fine. But don’t sit there typing your comments and think that the rest of us don’t know why and what you’re doing. Why else would someone average 47 posts a day for a 17 day period ….... That ain’t right. Be yourself man…..... No one expects you to comment on every project posted. I know I wouldn’t.

-- JJ...... I guess you could say I'm a 54 year old "juniorjock". — Make things with wood.

What difference should it make if someone wants to comment on every project? I think it’s cool that they are taking the time to look at each project. And I think when we worry about what others are doing, or their motives, we do damage to the community on this Web site by creating hostility. We also need to be thankful that we have members that keep this site active and growing. And that only happens when comments are posted … no matter the length or content of the post. Please don’t discourage anyone from posting comments.

Just my two cents :)

-- Teri, Kokomo, IN

Doesn’t matter to me….... and I’m sure not worried about anything. I was just making a point. I don’t care how many posts anyone has. I was just making a point. Thanks for your reply Teri.

-- JJ...... I guess you could say I'm a 54 year old "juniorjock". — Make things with wood.

junior , your comments are confusing me . you said i hate to bring it up again , but you did . next comment dosent matter to me , but you brought it up more than once . so it must bother you at least a little . why ?
often i post nice job , or great work , youve stated you know what and why im doing this . id like to hear it . why does someone make 47 posts a day , maybe they have nothing else to do . you said that aint right be yourself , it comes off more like you aint right be like me . i think in an open forum the best we can do is police what we personally say and do , trying to police what everyone says and does is a fruitless impossible task . a critic is a job description and one im not qualified for therefore i choose not to do it . if someone else is confident in their skills as a critic by all means do . some do and they are very good at it . others are not good at it and makeing them feel oblgated to do it could have some very bad results
im mr- trim and i approve this comment ! lol sorry ive been dying to throw that in somewhere . lol
its not my intention to offend you junior . i only wanted to rebutt your statements

I agree with Teri 100%!!!

I have no way of knowing what others motives are but I think the comments are a good thing and that the people that take the time to comment are providing a very valuable service to this community.

I think they are especially important for new members. I remember when I posted my first project and I got 11 comments the first day. They were almost all one liners but it made me feel great. I thought to myself this is a great place, I’m going to like it here.

I started this post to explore constructive criticism but I’d never want to take away or diminish all the positive comments. Over time they may not seem as important but they still feel good and I appreciate that people take the time to look and comment.

-- Leon -- Houston, TX - " I create all my own designs and it looks like it "

No offense taken mrtrim. And I want to be clear that I was not referring to you. I guess you are right. The posts I question are by members who don’t have anything else to do.

-- JJ...... I guess you could say I'm a 54 year old "juniorjock". — Make things with wood.

I’m going to make this an even 100. Their are a group of people here whom I consider my friends. They comment on almost all my posted projects and blogs. When they post a project I comment, even if it’s only an at “Atta Boy”. I want them to know that I am paying attention to our friendship. I am busy but not too busy for my friends. There are also new woodworkers whom I choose to encourage. Believe me I am not posting to add up a high count of postings. And if there are people who want a high number that is their business and just the numbers help Martin keep this site on the air.

-- Thos. Angle

T.A.: I agree, I try to get to all of my “Buddy” posts in some way.

Plus, any post brings a project back to the top of the pulse where it can get a little fresh air.

If you have ever had a post get zero response, it is nice to have something said…. anything…. Bueller?..... I try to look for some of those “zeroed” posts and add my 2 cents even if it is just a short comment.

The bulk of us are trying to keep it civil.

Carry on.

-- -John "Do I have to keep typing a smiley? Just assume it's a joke." www.flickr.com/photos/gizmodyne

i want to publicly appoligize to juniorjock . after i got home today i re read his post and my response . i think i may have taken his comment too personal . and mine was way too harsh and out of line junior im sorry

Wise men don’t need advice. Fools won’t take it. ~ Benjamin Franklin

-- Anybody can become a woodworker, but only a Craftsman can hide his mistakes.

No need to appoligize mrtrim…. we’re all in this together.

-- JJ...... I guess you could say I'm a 54 year old "juniorjock". — Make things with wood.

I just set down and read through this entire post.
Wow this is long. This is really a great subject to discuss as many people have offered opinions.

I like the idea of the poster asking for criticism if they want it. I personally welcome all constructive criticism on all of my projects. I too was annoyed at first with all of the short “attaboy” type comments. But, then I finally posted my own project and reading an “attaboy” from someone whom I know is more experienced than me really does make you feel good about your craft. Gives you the confidence to continue making sawdust.

Personally I hope that everyone that checks out anything I do will leave all the comments they want. Short or long, positive or constructive, I wouldn’t bother posting anything if I didn’t want to hear back on it.

Just my opinion and I’m giving it because if Leon didn’t’ want it, he wouldn’t have posted it in a forum.

-- Kevin, Wichita, Kansas