constructive criticism OR pandora's box

I’m inclined to agree with you Leon.
We are either TFC (Trolling For Complements) or genuinely trying to instruct or learn at these forums.
I often see posters who only post in order to blow their horns and never post a compliment or criticism in the interim.
Perhaps the simple phrase ”comments welcomed” at the end of a project would ease the transition.

p.s. it would also be nice if whem you do ask a question that the poster takes the time to answer you.

Bob

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

Right on.

-- Dust collectors suck.

thats a slippery slope.

I decline to offer advice as feathers get bent out of shape.

Cheers

-- http://www.furnituremann.ca/

You have a good point, but I have a personal rule that I won’t offer advice unless I’m asked.

-- Gary, East TX -- The longest journey begins with a single step.

I offer an example of a thread from another forum that has a different focus, but is similar in many ways. This post is one of my all time favorites. Those folks who do wood bending and use epoxy will find it interesting.

Hi! Wood_Ogre here

It was posted by a guy with decades of experience. The responders gave him compliments, but also offered criticism and advise. I think the discussions that resulted really helped my understanding of the topic.

I would like to see more of this type of discussion here on this site. I have been a LumberJocks member for only three days, and my initial observations match those stated by Leon above.

-- Scott, San Diego

Personally I would be grateful for a gentle nudge in the right direction. Once my shop thaws out and I start to make and post some projects I will ask for truthful critiques. My goal is to become a better woodworker and any help is to my benefit. I unfortunately have no woodworking clubs or affordable classes near me so it is my hope that I can pick up some skills from this forum.

-- Frank Auge---Nichols NY----"My opinion is neither copyrighted nor trademarked, but it is price competitive."

I’m new here, and hesitant to comment..But of course I will anyway…it is a slippery slope..Don’t like it : SAY NOTHING..that’s what my mom told me…hmmm…and who are we to “constructively critcize?” Jeepers..camera angles can affect the balance of a piece…style and design are in the eye of the beholder…I do not like Queen Anne..I love shaker..it’s a preference issue…so …I think it’s a pandora’s box

I agree with your post Leon. But unless I see something that I feel really needs correcting I am hesitant to offer advice. If there is an obvious safety and health concern, for example, that I see in the post I feel that a comment should be suggested. But whether the project should be dovetailed or have box joints in place of the butt joints that is the poster’s choice and I really shouldn’t be commenting on it unless requested.

I am generally open and have a personal rule that if you don’t want me to tell you my opinion do ask. (I had to check to see if you had a question about this in your entry- so I am safe in giving you my opinion).

-- With God's help all things are possible- even woodworking. Woodworking is not just a hobby, it is an (expletive deleted) expensive hobby.

I think the progress blogs are the best place for open critique or suggestions. Once it is on the project page it is usually a done deal. Critique then could be requested.

-- -John "Do I have to keep typing a smiley? Just assume it's a joke." www.flickr.com/photos/gizmodyne

I’d like to add this. If I post a project and I mention that the dovetails aren’t real crisp (for example), or the finish didn’t come out as well as I had hoped for, then I don’t need a half a dozen guys piling on. If I don’t mention an obvious flaw then perhaps I do need a nudge.

-- Maplewood, MN

I had to go check out the box in question. I liked the observations or critiques, but I liked the non-matching dovetail even more. Taste is a funny thing. We tend to discount stuff just based on taste or what is fashionable. Rustic or modern they both have very high quality pieces and others that are cheap junk. What I like are when you give me alternatives. Our “critique” here usually comes in the form of a question. “Why did you stagger your dovetails?” I have seen a lot of questions asked here that I’ve been able to learn from.

-- http://www.woodsongsfurniture.com

I try to include a bit of constructive help when it looks warranted, but I feel I have to be very subtle about it – like walking on egg shells – because of the prominent disdain for anything “negative” that might come out of CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM.

To be honest with you, I hate walking on egg shells.

It is so much easier to be open and forthcoming and sincere and to tell someone, “Hey, you’re doing really good on this part of your project but on your next project you might want to consider focusing a little more on this other part of it.” I think it impedes the learning aspect of posting projects to your peers. I liken it to having kids play non-competitive sports. It doesn’t teach them a whole lot about the really real world (i.e. LIFE) unless they’re going to get into some field where it doesn’t matter how good you are; where everyone gets paid the same and has the same benefits no matter how high or low your skill level and knowledge. I don’t really think those jobs exist. And if they did, I certainly wouldn’t want one of them.

Who are we to criticize?

Maybe we are a woodworker who has made the same mistake before and can offer some advice on how to correct it or avoid it in the future.

Maybe we are someone who specializes in carving and can offer advice on how to get a crisper line or how to make an object look more life-like.

Maybe we have been cutting mortise and tenon joinery for 25 years and can tell you what you need to do to make the joint come together a little more snug or fit a little better to create a stronger joint.

Maybe we have a degree in art and can give you information on how to improve the aesthetics of your project from a designer’s point of view. Sometimes it doesn’t take but a little tweak to get your project from OK to GREAT!

Maybe we do woodworking for a living and can explain from our business experiences what sells and what doesn’t.

Maybe we restore antiques for a living and can help you improve upon your finish by telling you where you’re doing it wrong and how to do it right.

Is any one person all of these things? Probably not. But I guarantee you with over 3000 members on this site, there is at least one person who is. Why not be willing to learn from them? They don’t even have to be an expert for you to learn from them! You just need to be willing to learn!

(Conversely, just because someone has been doing something for 25 years doesn’t mean they are the person to listen to. Maybe they’ve been doing it wrong for 25 years because nobody ever bothered to tell them otherwise! How would you feel if you’d been doing something the same way for years and years because nobody ever told you it was the wrong way or an inefficient way or that there was a better way?)

It doesn’t take a list of rules to follow – it just takes some common sense. Don’t be hateful; offer helpful advise. That’s it. We’re all adults here (I’d even include the Teenage Woodworker in that category) – we should be able to figure out if the advice we’re going to offer is constructive or not. If it isn’t, keep it to yourself. If it is, then what’s the harm in saying it?

I’ll concede the point that there might be some woodworkers out there who are simply posting projects to brag about what they’ve done – and that’s perfectly fine if they want to do that. However, I refuse to believe that is why EVERYONE posts projects. I think there are people out there who want to LEARN and GROW as woodworkers through peer review and evaluation. You can’t do that if all anyone tells you is how great a job you’re doing and nobody ever points out an aspect of your project that could use some improvement.

It seems like a lot of trouble to edit my own profile and say I want constructive advise and then to include that comment at the end of every project or else to indicate I DON’T want any criticism on each project and then make sure I check someone else’s profile before I make a comment on it to be sure I don’t ruffle any feathers or step on some sensitive toes.

Maybe we could clear it up with two areas of the website for posting projects – call one the “Brag Board” and the other the “Learning Board”. If you just want to show pictures of your work, then post it on the Brag Board. If you want to show pictures of your work and get friendly advice or criticism from other woodworkers as to what you can do on future projects to improve, then post it on the Learning Board.

I’ve often felt that whole aspect of woodworking is left out of this site, much to the detriment of the majority of the members here. It was one of the first things I wrote about as a new Lumberjock over a year ago (Blog #63). I still feel the same way, but… I quickly realized it was a lost cause trying to get everyone to open up to the idea of learning through peer evaluation. Honestly, that makes me sad. Why would you not want to learn from others?

Personally, I want to grow as a woodworker. I want to improve my skills and knowledge base and I want to know when I’m doing something wrong or when I need to work on my design or technique. I post a project here and there when I feel like it (and remembered to take pictures), but more often than not I show my projects to friends of mine who are woodworkers and artists and have degrees in art and art history. I can get honest and helpful advice from them as to where I need to focus on improving my woodworking skills. And because I expect them to be critical of my piece, their praise on the parts I’ve done well carries a lot more weight, too.

-- Ethan, http://www.merganserwoodworks.com, http://greystonegreen.blogspot.com/

Bravo Ethan!

I am new here. My profile says “I would like to get feedback about the designs and chronicle the building of the projects.”

I meant it when I joined.

I don’t have a text library of cut and paste praises.

When I was in college, we used to help each other study. If one of us didn’t get it there was always someone who did. We looked at each others projects and picked the best parts for our own learning experience. that’s what I want from a forum.

Websers definition of Forum → “a medium (as a newspaper or online service) of open discussion or expression of ideas”

That’s what it’s all about.

-- Scott - Chico California http://chicowoodnut.home.comcast.net

That was a mouth-full Ethan….... and I agree with every word of it. When I discovered this site I knew that if I began posting projects there were going to be comments and not all would be good. I’ve only been woodworking a couple years. I’m a retired newspaper man… so you can imagine that I didn’t get many good comments during those years. My grandfather told me a long time ago….. “if no one is complaining….... no one is reading the paper”. Maybe that applies here too. I welcome comments…... but I think we all can do it in a way that helps, instead of hurts.

-- Make things with wood.

I really consider each and every one of you as a friend and I always try and welcome any critique as a learning experience. We learn something new everyday guys! But we all have to remember that there is “destructive critism” as well as “constructive critism”. So we need to think about what we say before we hit the “Post this reply” button.

-- Bob Vila would be so proud of you!

Well said Dadoo.

-- Make things with wood.

Just one more thing while all this is on my mind….......... What’s up with these posts that are only two or three words when commenting on a project…..?

-- Make things with wood.

i dont care to post anything negative on anyones project and if i did it would be through a p m . 2 reasons .
if you pm someone and tell them about something that dosent look right or whatever the guy either considers it helpful and learns from it or is offended by it . either way it gets deleted . what you post on someones project page stays there . he might one day have the whole family over for thanksgiving and want to show them his page . i work sometimes for people who only own vacation homes here and have e mailed a link to my project page so they could look at some of my work or something similar to what they want done . so thers other things to consider when posting . personaly im with gary k if someone wants my help all they need to do is ask . some have and i gave it my very best

-- if you aint the lead dog the scenery never changes

juniorjock , i think the short comment are about the time it takes to do an evaluation . when i joined i was welcomed by a bunch or folks . i felt i needed to give back by welcoming other folks , and i did every one . and also tried to comment on as many projects as i could . within two months i was coming home and finding two full pages of profiles of people that joined that day ! theres no way i can keep up even to just type welcome on each . and the projects are going by so fast now i dont even get to see some of them .

-- if you aint the lead dog the scenery never changes

I see what you’re saying mrtrim….. and by the way…. thanks for the welcome.

-- Make things with wood.

I had an on going e-mail correspondence with a saddle maker in Australia. he kept asking me questions about how to do things. I answered each one honestly. I didn’t really think much of his work but didn’t say anything. he sent over photos of a saddle he was really proud of. It had basket stamping running every which way. I wrote and suggested he might be happier with the next one if he got all his basketstamping running the same direction. End of conversation!!! I guess he didn’t want any constructive criticism. As to the short compliments; the best compliment I ever received was “Pretty work!!”. I just don’t have time to be long winded. There are too many projects now.

-- Thos. Angle, Owyhee Design, Oregon

Thanks to everyone for their comments. I’m still trying to digest all of it.

I don’t want to discount the positive comments but for me they lose their luster after a while. When I posted my first project, I got a number of very nice positive comments and it felt great. I had confirmation that I was actually a woodworker and what I do is appreciated. As Sally Field said “You really like me”.

After a while though, I noticed that all the projects were getting good reviews. So I got to thinking that if I’m going to get better, I could use some constructive feedback and that led me to my post today. BTW – It still feels good to get the positive comments. So don’t let up on the positive stuff.

One thing I had NOT considered was the issue that mrtrim brought up about this going “on your permanent record”. I would NOT like that. I want to get the feedback, apply it or ignore it and then burn the constructive criticism. Don’t know how we could do that. The private message would work but I think there is value in an open discussion as well.

Maybe we could have these discussions in the forum section and NOT in the projects area. We could create a forum just for Critiques and Constructive Criticism. This forum could be for members only and we could still send our friends and family to the public projects area.

It is clear from the posts that this is a very personal choice and critiques and criticism should only be offered to those that specifically ask for it.

Thanks again for all you comments.

-- Leon -- Houston, TX - " I create all my own designs and it looks like it "

Leon,

I think the guidelines in your OP are real good and should work quite well if that’s how it ws done.

When I read your original post, I related back to a friend of mine who created the acronym “NPGJ”
for the Penturners forum because all folks were telling one another was just that—Nice Pen, good job.
He, and I, wanted constructive criticism so we could grow our talents.

I don’t post much here but I usually ask for comments and criticism when I do.
If someone asks for constructive advice, I’d offer it IF I have something constructive to offer.

Cheers,
Gary

the same discussion has taken place many times in the photography world.
For me, it just made sense to post a statement with your project: Constructive Criticism welcome!
Then we know; we don’t have to remember who just wants to post for their own goals, or those who just want kudos, or those who want to learn from others….

-- "Functional WoodArt" by Debbie, Canada (http://www.execulink.com/~yohan)

MsDebbieP, I agree. “critiques and criticism should only be offered to those that specifically ask for it.”

I think that mrtrim had a very good point, however, about NOT wanting these critiques and criticisms included with your project ( so your friends, family, and customers don’t have to see it).

I think I’ll experiment with a post in a forum asking for a critique of one of my projects and see what happens.

-- Leon -- Houston, TX - " I create all my own designs and it looks like it "

Leon, I think you have the right idea. If you do that I will definitely critique your work for you. I don’t mean in a derogatory way, but honestly. If you are asking for an honest opinion I think you will get it and we can all stay friends. It just might start a great forum and not cost any of us customers.

-- Thos. Angle, Owyhee Design, Oregon

Great thread, great subject! I try to be objective in my posts and projects – I know I’m new, I know I’m learning and the main reason I’m here is to get input from others that are more experienced. I expect some constructive criticism.

I post most all of my projects – whether they came out perfect or not. I take pride in everything I do but I try to see where I can improved as well. Take a look at some of my projects – you’ll see comments like, “This came out great but I could have done that better…” I think your approach is excellent as well. Don’t just say “this is wrong” but offer some true advice to help improve.

One thing I’ve told a lot of my off-line friends about LJ, through the cooperative knowledge of the others on this site I’ve been able to learn in a few months what I imagine would take a couple years on your own.

-- Tim D. - Woodstock, GA

Oh yes.. good point about the projects vs. blogs – especially if someone is using their Projects section for business purposes. Very good point

-- "Functional WoodArt" by Debbie, Canada (http://www.execulink.com/~yohan)

Slippery slope time…if people ask AND ONE TRULY has a very legitimate reason to say KINDLY ..hey, I made one something like that and I put a square foot on mine….hmmm, but to openly criticize a person or his/her work JUST to criticize and Puff up one’self??? NO NO, a thousand times no..design degree, or no design degree…other sites do this and it gets ugly, nasty and horrible….I left those and came here, hoping for civility..Make a seperate section IF YOU MUST…

-- Turn & turn somemore

Everyone makes good points.

If I don’t like something I won’t post a comment, unless it’s a beginner posting one of their first projects, and
then I say something nice as a form of encouragement. Now just because I don’t like something doesn’t
mean that it’s bad, but maybe it’s just not style that I like. Everyone has their own preferences, otherwise
we’d all be making the same thing.

As a rule I don’t offer advice unless I am asked. I will offer critiques only for those who ask.

As for ”What’s up with these posts that are only two or three words when commenting on a project…..?”

I’m with Thos. I don’t have time to be long winded, unless I have something that I think needs to be said.
Besides I’m not the fastest typist in the world.

-- Gary, East TX -- The longest journey begins with a single step.

Not that there is anything wrong with being long winded…

Have you ever read an article about a movie or book in a newspaper or national magazine? What about a write-up of a play showing at the local theatre or a ballet review? Those are most definitely criticisms (and rarely what one might call constructive) of someone else’s work.

People have critiques of their works published publically all the time for hundreds of thousands of people to see. I bet you’ve even used one of those critiques to help you decide if you want to see a movie or not! If a movie production company stopped making movies just because someone printed a bad review, then I’d dare say we wouldn’t have any movies being made.

Something you (the “collective” you) should keep in mind is that you aren’t the only one who might benefit from a constructive comment on your project! Out of the 3000+ LJ members, how many do you think are lurkers who might visit the site daily or weekly but never post a project or make a comment? (Not that there is anything wrong with that…) Do you think they don’t learn anything because they don’t post a project?

I think they probably still learn a lot by reading blogs and looking at projects to see how other woodworkers have tackled challenges and learned from them. They also learn a lot by reading the comments (e.g. responses, reviews, advice) left on those projects and blogs.

Who cares if a member of your family sees a comment some digital person made on your project from across the country! If you’re the kind of family that is together at Thanksgiving and you are showing them your LJ project pictures, do you really think they’re going to think less of you or your finished piece because of a comment from someone they don’t know?

As far as the possibility of clients viewing critical comments of your work goes… Jackson Pollock received public negative reviews of his works his whole life (I, for one, can’t abide it). Do you think that stopped him from painting? No. Did it stop art collectors from buying his paintings? No. What about Andy Warhol? Same thing – he kept doing his own thing his own way and some people loved it and some people hated it. The people who hated it didn’t just quietly think that to themselves – they shouted it from mountain tops!

So you shouldn’t be worried about a possible client reading a constructive comment about something you’ve done. If they like your works and are interested in having a business relationship with you, then it won’t matter what some unknown (to them) digital person thinks about your project.

I think you have to understand the joys and limitations of an internationally-used website such as Lumberjocks. It is great for meeting woodworkers and learning from the experiences of others and sharing your own experiences for others to use. It is good for showing pictures of pieces you’ve finished to get help and advice from others so you can advance your skills and knowledge. It is even useful for making connections from a business point of view, to some extent.

I don’t think it is a good direct method of generating sales (trying to sell woodworking projects to other woodworkers is called, “Targeting the Wrong Audience”). What all of “that” (blogging, commenting on forums, posting projects) does is get your project and your name and images of your works put out into the digital world for others to see. So people searching Google for something and finding a link to one of your projects on LumberJocks is definitely a possibility and could easily lead to a sale!

That is a little off-topic, though… I think the main thing to keep in mind is that you are posting a project on a website that can be visited from pretty much anywhere in the populated world and it is posted on a website that allows people to make comments to your project. If you are a non-professional woodworker who enjoys blogging and enjoys posting pictures and sometimes gets to make some sales as a result, then you shouldn’t be worried about what one person thinks of another person’s comments to you on that site.

If you are a woodworker with a business and you make your living with that business, then I don’t think you should rely strictly upon the LJ website as a method of displaying a portfolio of your work. You should absolutely spend the time and money to set up a professional site for your business. And you should probably spend the time and money to create a printed portfolio you can carry with you for personal interactions with clients. That way, you can direct your possible clients to a site that is set up and designed specifically for generating sales for your company.

(The OTHER reason I quit writing about the topic of Constructive Criticism is because my fingers kept cramping up…)

But I’m done writing about it. Why don’t we just have a Utopian website where nobody says anything bad and everything is always great and nobody ever learns from their mistakes (or anyone else’s, for that matter)? That sounds just peachy to me.

-- Ethan, http://www.merganserwoodworks.com, http://greystonegreen.blogspot.com/

Thanks for starting this discussion. I for one would welcome constructive comments.

Maybe a trial run is in order…
http://www.flickr.com/groups/ljc/

You’ll need a flickr account (free) and an invite to join. Hopefully keeping the group private will keep some civility.

I like Flickr’s UI. You can leave comments for more global comments and notes which highlight a particular area in the photo.

I made the group private so you’ll have to ask to join. Please send me a note inside flickr that you are a lumberjock and I’ll send the invite.

-- Che.

He who praises everybody, praises nobody.
—Samuel Johnson

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

I am a LJ member because I want to observe and learn. I’m sure most of you (from newbies to season pros) agree with this. I’ve always felt that you learn from making mistakes. The fact is, it’s not likely that your wife, kids, or any other realitive will point out things wrong with a project you’ve finished simply because they don’t have the knowledge to do so or they just don’t want to hurt your feelings. All of us here at LJ have at least some knowledge of woodworking or we wouldn’t be here. That’s why we need to hear the comments…... good or bad. And, to Gary K and mrtrim, I wasn’t trying to stir up anything about the short comments. I was just curious…. I respect both of you just as I do all LJ members. Sorry if I offended.

-- Make things with wood.

JJ…Being a visual introverted type rather than a verbal extrovert type a 3 word comment from me is like a whole paragraph. Two whole sentences and my typing finger begins to cramp. Three sentences and my brain kinks in and I get real confused!

-- http://www.woodsongsfurniture.com

I definitely fall into the “please give me constructive criticism” camp. While I totally understand why some might want the criticism separate, personally I prefer mine to be right on my project page. That way it is more likely that someone looking at one of my projects could benefit from the criticism as well. The beauty of this (and other) community is that many people can benefit from one persons question being answered or project being criticized.

Maybe Martin would consider an alternative view of the projects without comments. Maybe call it your portfolio. That way you could choose whether you want people to see the comments or not. Just a thought.

-- Tom, Southwest Florida

To be honest, I am sick and tired of getting comments like “nice project”, “pretty cool”, etc. What I want to know is what I could have done better and how to get a better woodworker.

When I look around at people’s projects, I sometimes see things that could be improved, obvious mistakes, or interesting avenues that could be followed. More often than not I move on and never post a comment. As some of the people suggested above, I am all in favor of people putting a special symbol, message or picture if they are interested in constructive criticism. Also, it would be nice if posters would point out what they like and do not like about their projects to encourage people to add their own thoughts.

Sometimes, you just like a project and you can hardly think how to make it better. Being specific in your comments about what you like would be nice as well. This kind of things help people figure out what they do well and what they do not.

Alin

-- -- Alin Dobra, Gainesville, Florida

Thanks for great discussion everybody.

Here are my 2 cents: If you want to get constructive criticism on your project or its specific part JUST ASK FOR IT. It happened numerous times here on LJ (I can find some past projects if you want ;) and it works that way in the real world too. I bet nobody criticize your work constructively if you don’t ask for that.

Tom, portfolio view is a good idea.. I have something similar in the plans. Thanks!

-- Martin, http://lumberjocks.com | My Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/people/Martin_Sojka/1357216976

Wow, what a great discussion, some things I’ve (a newer member) have been wondering about. So, heck let me add my two cents, I’ll try and be short and sweet.

Constructive criticism: I think a separate “Give me comments and advise” section may be a good thing. Not for many of the reasons above, but simply because some of “us” need that expertise and knowledge a lot of you guys have. Please give it to me! I see this website as the perfect opportunity for me to meet new folks, but also to learn from those who have been there done that. Many of us hobby woodworkers don’t have a mentor or boss to help us improve…and who knows if the local woodworking store instructor is giving you the best advise.

The short remarks: Yeah, I thought that at first, but since I joined I’ve tried to comment on all the projects I have at least a little intelligence to say something. Saying that….Guys there are a whole lot of new projects every day and it is hard to keep up. Short is OK, not everybody has that much time…heck I’m having trouble keeping up myself. The way I see it, if they take the time to comment they must see something about it they liked. It’s maybe not the greatest…thing they’ve seen, but must be pretty good. I find most folks who don’t have anything good to say will say nothing at all. So, even something short is a good thing.

One additional comment: I will say most folks have been great about replying with additional information when asked and a big “THANK YOU” from me because I’m learning a lot, and I don’t think anyone has taken offense to the questions. I saw the comment about the box and didn’t think anything about it. It sounded like he was just curious to me on whether it was on purpose or not (sometimes we make mistakes and just like it that way).

I just think a “give me advice” column might work….that is if we have room and can actually do it (meaning the computer/Internet end of it)...Martin you’d have to advise on that.

-- Jim Hallada, Chesterfield, VA

I was not going to comment, but Alin brought up an interesting point . . . how many people are (to use Alin’s words) sick and tired of getting comments like “nice project”, “pretty cool”, etc

In addition to the ”not enough time to type something longer” I personally suffer from the ”I don’t feel I have enough knowledge\skill\etc to add value to someone elses project”

At times the absolute best I can offer is a “nice job” when their project would blow any of mine clear out of the water.

my $0.02

-- The significant problems we face cannot be solved by the same level of thinking that created them

Alin took me up on my offer to have my projects critiqued.

Check out my 2x4 Planter Stand and Planters project.

-- Leon -- Houston, TX - " I create all my own designs and it looks like it "

Very thoughtful critique by Alin.

-- -John "Do I have to keep typing a smiley? Just assume it's a joke." www.flickr.com/photos/gizmodyne

As far as I’m concered,
PUT IT ON DISPLAY TAKE YOUR MEDICINE!
Better our criticisim than a customer or gift recipient.

-- MARK IN BOB, So. CAL

Zuki,

It is fine to say “nice project” but it is better to say what you liked about the project. Saying what you liked is as important as saying what you did not like.

In some of the conferences I send papers to, as a reviewer you have to say 3 things you like and 3 things you do not like about a paper. I think this exercise would be interesting about the projects posted on LJ. Try to think about 3 reasons you like a post and 3 reasons you do not (or think need improvement). I’m sure interesting things are bound to result from the exercise.

Alin

-- -- Alin Dobra, Gainesville, Florida

As Debbie stated the photography world has the same discussion. I am a member of photographycorner.com where there are forum designations for the level of critique you want…..just sharing…..feedback wanted….full critique….This way people can choose what level of feedback they get. I have learned many things on that site as well as passed my experiences onto many thankful people. This type of feedback is essential if you are looking to market any of your goods. Like they say, opinions are like bellybuttons, everyone has one. (clean version) So if you are looking to start selling pieces you want to know what is liked and what isnt so you can have a better chance of selling the items. We here at LJ are all a bit tained since we see the value in quality and appreciate the work that goes into these pieces, but we will still be able to give an indication if something is generally accepted and attractive in the retail market.

My $.02 and it is worth how much you paid for it.

constructive criticism OR pandora’s box

pandora…........why havent I seen a downhill ski slope named Pandora and if there is one I bet its a black diamond

even when you ask….....you dont get much feedback

intimidation and insecurity is the foundation of Pandoras box. I suspect that they are both the same. Is Pandora a guy or a girl?,,,,curious…............or is Pandora an ancient God worshiped by infidels. The whole name or word “Pandora”.............it’s just wrong

Excellence, perfection,,......................they dont exist, and if they do, I have yet to physically shake their hand, they are only words we can strive to achieve by faith, hope, wisdom, knowledge, pioty, grace, and love.

-- http://www.furnituremann.ca/

I’ve made comments before about something that I’m not comfortable about. I’ve even made one tonight. I don’t go all out and say it’s garbage. I keep those comment to myself. Because the project tonight was not garbage. It was great.

I’ve never been a fan of scroll saw work. I’ve used the scroll saw and I’ve seen some work but it’s not something that I’d like to do. But I can appreciate the amount of work that goes into these projects. So I not going to say anything bad about it. So it may be notings or a statement that i appreciate the amount of work that goes into it.

I appreciate all comments. If something is said that I’m not comfortable with on a project of mine I’ll accept it and not get into a shouting match. Nothing is gained from that.

Now everyone is going looking for the comment that I made.

-- Karson Southern Delaware karson_morrison@bigfoot.com

interesting idea, tpastore – adding “just sharing | feedback wanted | full critique” dropdown on the new project page and then show this info on the project page.

-- Martin, http://lumberjocks.com | My Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/people/Martin_Sojka/1357216976

Martin,

Make sure that “just sharing” is the default selection, otherwise some people might get more than they bargained for. I wanted something like this for a long time but I never summoned the courage to start the discussion.

Alin

-- -- Alin Dobra, Gainesville, Florida

This is a good topic and the points made thus far are even better. I think all of the points made here are valid and for me it’s easy to see things from both perspectives. Personally I love the idea of having “just sharing | feedback wanted | full critique” pull down options.

But one thing I haven’t seen mentioned actually goes one step deeper. I’ve posted things and recieved feedack (both solicited and not) from members of the group all of which was appreciated and valued. However I may not have agreed with the feed back and posted a response as to why I didn’t think the suggestion would work or didn’t feel that the point made would be an issue.

I know for certain that in at least one instance the member offering the feedback felt as though they had offended me, which could not have been further from the truth. I truly did appreciate the input and opinions, I just didn’t agree with them and responded to their post explaining why I felt that way. The point behind responding wasn’t to start an argument or show any displeasure with their comments, it was about continuing the conversation in hopes that I would learn something.

One thing I think we all need to remember is that conversation is a two way street. One of the main reasons that I joined this site was to interact with other people having interests simillar to mine. I am less concerned about “constructive criticism” from others offending me than I am about my offending them if I don’t agree with what they have to say. So I think it goes a little deeper than offending someone with comments about their work. We also need to think about how we are going to recieve their thoughts about our comments.

When I first joined the site I was welcomed aboard by one of the members who said “You have questions and we’ll answer them, you have answers and we’ll question them.” I immediately thought to myself “I’M REALLY GOING TO LIKE IT HERE”

By the way, the guy that thought he offended me is on my buddy list, I’m on his, and I look forward to everything he has to say.

-- I've cut that board three times and it's still too short!

I like the drop down menu idea for varying degrees of feedback.

I’m one of the guys some are “sick of” that comments in a word or two or three – frankly because I just can’t keep up with the volume anymore. So, with the explosion of participation since I joined, I think if we want deeper feedback, we’re going to have to ask for it in some way.

I’ll ask for critique when it passes muster with my first hand viewing. But, when I see all my mistakes, loose joinery, glue spots in the finish and poor design, yet post it anyway – I want to also have the option to decline to have others pile on with their critiques after I’ve already beat myself down about it. That’s when I need some kind soul to come by and say, “It doesn’t look so bad. I like it.”

-- Paul, Texas

Shaun, you’ve hit what I think is a key issue. If we are going to have constructive criticism, it should be an actual discussion. NOT an argument but a back and forth on the issues and comments. All these comments are actually opinions and we each have our own. I think that is value in sharing our OPINIONS.

Remember the post on the walnut box that started all this? Some people didn’t like the lid because it didn’t have any dovetails. Pesonally I like it just the way it was. Several others didn’t like the unbalanced dovetails but at least one person liked that feature. Because of this dialog, the next time I do a dovetail box, I’ll ponder the pros and cons of dovetails vs lids more seriously.

-- Leon -- Houston, TX - " I create all my own designs and it looks like it "

Excellent point Alin . . . even if I feel I have nothing to contribute because of my lack of experience, I can (and should) point out exacty what I do like.

Martin . . . I like that idea with Alin’s suggestion of a default.

I think this is the most constructive discussion on this particular topic that I have seen on LJs. It has all been brought up before . . . but I think we have gotten somewhere with this one. Tks for putting the spin on it Leon.

-- The significant problems we face cannot be solved by the same level of thinking that created them

Here’s something I’ve noticed and I wanted to see what everyone thought about it. I admit I’m one of the “new guys” on the LJ site and have only posted one project but I’ve noticed that after a project has been posted for a few days, it seldom gets many (if any) comments. We’re adding new members to LJ every few minutes and I think it’s important that the newbies know that their comments are welcome too, no matter how long a project has been posted. I know I’m a little off-base from the original topic but again, these comments could contain likes and dis-likes. And, of course, this goes for the other forums on the site. Just because no one has posted on a subject for 25 days doesn’t mean you can’t jump right in and share your thoughts about it. What do you guys and girls think?

-- Make things with wood.

I am new as well but I think Leon and Bob2 have a good idea. How are going to get better at what we do if we will not except “Constructive Criticism”. I think it would be helpful if you put on your project “Comments welcome”
Although isn’t the point of this site to get help from other members as long as someone does not get insulting?
The drop down box is also a good idea.
This is an important issue to discuss.

-- Bob K. East Northport, NY

From a design standpoint I will often, get stuck. So my comments are a result of how I approach woodworking and problem solving in general, for better or worse I am just thinkin out loud. Often times the work I see here on lumberjocks, just works. So a simple”good job” is my way of saying, “I wouldn’t change a thing”. As far a comment on quality, fit and finish if you will, that’s a tough one. 3 pictures and a pargraph aren’t really enough for me to make that call. I’ve sat here talking to myself for an hour here on this paragraph alone, I’m not sure if I even remember the topic correctly now, I’m not rewriting this!

-- If knowledge is not shared, it is forgotten.

I couldn’t agree with you more Leon. Actually with the example I mentioned in my last post on this subject, we continued our conversation and the Jock that thought he offended me ultimately ended up turning me on to a different idea that I had not previously considered and if I ever find the time to get back on that project, I’m going to use his idea.

So in that particular case we both walked away from the conversation learning something. If you’re asking me, it doesn’t get any better than that!

-- I've cut that board three times and it's still too short!

This sure is an active post!
Here’s my thoughts:

Unless someone asks for a critique I will not offer my opinion. (I will post a positive comment if I see something I really like or have a real interest in. Mostly to open a dialog with the maker to share info, I still have much to learn, as well as somethings to share)

I will not write anything that is in any way putting the maker down. We all started out with fewer skills & tools than we now have.

Sarcasm has no place in forums such as this. It’s too easy for a comment made in jest to be taken the wrong way.

I , personaly enjoy any praise my peers may offer me, but for some reason, I find it hard to post the simple “good job” or “nice work” It seems disengenuinus to offer bannal praise. I sometimes wonder if , at least some of those “good job” posts are there for no other reason than to raise the number of posts by the one doing the praise. Just my take. . . I’m sure many such posts are heart felt & intended to encourage the maker. Too often I read a post & start to reply but can’t find the right words to praise the work without sounding like a parrot of the other responders, so I back out & keep looking around the site.

There are so many interesting projects posted here, in so many different areas, in so many skill levels, there is always things to admire.

I love them all!

-- http://www.grandprairiewoodworks.com

Good post Tim.

-- Make things with wood.

I don’t mind criticsms from some of the great craftsmen here. However I do get a little frustrated when my critic has less projects under his belt and less experience. Hasn’t happened to much here, but i hear it from some neighbors, friends and family. My response, If you coold do better please show me.

I for one welcome any comments good or bad, if offered honestly. There is no point in tip toeing around. (we’ll just get sore toes!) I know that from a construction standpoint some of my early projects aren’t great, but from a design or creativity standpoint they are worth sharing. I see no point in only sharing the top 1% of our work. I would like to be able to learn and grow, and expect the same from most of us. I have received some good honest criticisms before and don’t feel bad about it – when it pertains to good construction or helpful tips. Design, well that’s all a matter of taste and needs to be remembered as such.
In college when we critiqued each others work we had to say something we liked about it too. We all have something to learn from each other, and sometimes it is best just to keep your mouth shut. – a fine line to tread for sure – especially considering that conversation is primarily relayed visually, secondly through tone and expression and finally, least of which though the actual words.
In the good old days a “looks good” was great, because to say nothing was either to seem to have no opinion or dislike… but a “I like the …. because…” is much better.
Or I wonder how it would look with (longer legs, this or that change) might be an improvement, might not.

still, we have so much to give and share with each other. If we share, we all win.

-- The opposite of war isn't peace. It's creation. -- Wood T's: http://www.printfection.com/snbcreative

Wow! A million responses to read through – and I read every one of them because I think I was the guy who made the first of the “constructive criticisms” that are at the heart of this thread.

I find myself treating others the way I would like to be treated – that is to give me a good honest, kind critique of my work. Even though I’m my own harshest critic, I need other pairs of eyes and others’ perspectives in order to improve. Everything I post is open for critique and always encouraged. I have been on websites where all the woodworkers wanted were “attaboys” – Sawmill Creek for example. I pretty much got chased off there years ago because when some of those guys asked for comments, they didn’t really want any other than “wow, awesome work”, even if it wasn’t. Personally, my own work isn’t all that great, and the attaboys don’t help anything other than my ego, rather what I need is “thats nice, but how about this..”

I apologize if I broke an unspoken rule, but everyone seemed to understand that I was offering both admiration and suggestions for small changes that might have helped. Someone else then did the same thing – and noticed something that I completely missed (and agreed with) – thats why I need every pair of eyes on my work, and not just “great job” comments (but I like them just fine).

On another site I frequent – World of Woodturning, the top names in the business regularly critique each others’ work, and if you post there, you’d better believe you are going to get tons of helpful hints from everyone. In effect, posting a pic there is basically stating “here, tell me how I can improve this.” My work has improved from THOSE kinds of sites, not from the other type. I think this site is a good blend of both, and that the lumberjocks here can take, and probably appreciate helpful comments.

But I won’t do it again if its not requested. On WOW, they used to add – “critique” to their posting if thats what they wanted, but now pretty much that is understood.

-- Just another woodworker

no worries, schwingding, you’re alright. (and thanks for the heads up about that woodturning site. I NEED help in that area.

-- The opposite of war isn't peace. It's creation. -- Wood T's: http://www.printfection.com/snbcreative

Mjlauro, sometimes th