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Sargent VBM 418 plane markings

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Forum topic by macmurf posted 04-19-2017 10:08 PM 1430 views 0 times favorited 27 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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macmurf

12 posts in 2752 days


04-19-2017 10:08 PM

Topic tags/keywords: sargent vbm 418 plane question plane

I have 18” plane with Sargent VBM stamped on the plane cap, the number 418 (no dot) stamped on the frog directly and Sargent VBM 418 New Haven CT stamped on blade but I can’t find any markings of any kind on the plane body. Does this make sense? Also, the pattern on base of the frog most closely resembles that identified as:
Pre VBM 1910?, Sargent 414C however it has a folded lateral (most like the 418) and is stamped 418. Thanks to Lumberjocks pics & HorizontalMike (www.Lumberjocks.com/topix/47190), they helped a lot! I’m going to upload a couple of pics of the frog base pattern, stampings, etc. (probably upside down?, sideways?, who knows?, sorry) but clear.
It sounds to me, who knows nothing about the subject, that I may have some combination of Sargent parts with a questionable base. Thanks in advance for any help.



-- The two most rewardingly therapeutic hobbies are: woodworking and gardening. Life, relax & ENJOY!


27 replies so far

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corelz125

334 posts in 885 days


#1 posted 04-20-2017 12:18 AM

Did you check timetestedtools ? Don has some info on sargents

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Don W

18608 posts in 2476 days


#2 posted 04-20-2017 01:19 AM

it’s an early type 4. In my new type study it’ll be a type 4a, its basically a left over type 3 frog with a folded lat. Would you post a picture of the base, I just want to compare it to what I think it should be.

-- http://timetestedtools.net - Collecting is an investment in the past, and the future.

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HorizontalMike

7747 posts in 2823 days


#3 posted 04-20-2017 01:26 AM

Not a problem. You indeed have a Sargent #418VBM. All parts shown are correct for this plane. The frog would make it a very early VBM, after all, Sargent was known for using up old stock parts when transitioning to newer models. The Sargent plane that I have had the longest, is a pre-VBM #418 with a plane lever cap.

http://horizontalheavens.com/418vs418VBM%20Comparison.htm
All planes are in the same order.

BTW, I recently came across a Type #1 418 (pre-lateral) off of fleaBay, for less than $40. I have not had time to post this because of having picked up several Sargents over that past couple months.

Still got some work to do on this one, but the wood is all perfect and is East India Rosewood (no cracks or breaks). BTW, I am now up to 40+ Sargents in my collection, so far…

-- HorizontalMike -- "Woodpeckers understand..."

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Don W

18608 posts in 2476 days


#4 posted 04-20-2017 01:35 AM

Mike, a type 1 should be rosewood and wouldn’t be flat sided. Even type 2 and 3 were rosewood.

I should have this in hand on saturday. A first run type 1 #409.

-- http://timetestedtools.net - Collecting is an investment in the past, and the future.

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HorizontalMike

7747 posts in 2823 days


#5 posted 04-20-2017 02:00 AM

Nice early tote Don, though you know that not all came with that “unusual rear handle” as Heckel noted in his guide(p38). Looks great.

My Type1 418 matches Heckel’s illustration (p42) as far as shape and size, and the wood is correct. Type 1s of these larger planes actually do have flatter sided totes. Types 2 and later were more rounded/molded for the hand:

At this point the #418 is the only Sargent that I have Types 1-5 for comparison. I will eventually get around to developing comparison images and post them.

-- HorizontalMike -- "Woodpeckers understand..."

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Don W

18608 posts in 2476 days


#6 posted 04-20-2017 02:08 AM

From what I’ve seen, all of the first runs (the ones with the stamped size before it was cast in the base) had the funky tote. I think the regular type 1s went to a more normal tote. That’s just my theory, it’s not like you can line 15 up and check it out.

-- http://timetestedtools.net - Collecting is an investment in the past, and the future.

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HorizontalMike

7747 posts in 2823 days


#7 posted 04-20-2017 10:16 AM

Well, I took the time to figure how to determine East Indian Rosewood and Brazilian Rosewood. Brazilian Rosewood has much fewer pores when compared to the East Indian Rosewood:

Brazilian Rosewood (endgrain 10x):

East Indian Rosewood (endgrain 10x)

That said, it appears that my Type1 418 has Brazilian Rosewood rather than East Indian Rosewood. As always,fun to learn new details/stuff ;-)

...Endgrain: Pay close attention to the endgrain, as it’s one of the best ways to separate the two woods. Each sample above represents approximately a 3/8″ square section of endgrain. The key is in the pore density: East Indian Rosewood has about twice as many pores per square inch as Brazilian Rosewood. This can be difficult to gauge if you don’t have any known samples to compare, but Brazilian Rosewood should have fairly sparsely spaced pores, while East Indian Rosewood should be almost riddled with pores...

-- HorizontalMike -- "Woodpeckers understand..."

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macmurf

12 posts in 2752 days


#8 posted 04-20-2017 12:11 PM

Really appreciate all the come back. I’ll post a couple more pics (orientation catch-us-catch-can, sorry, I’ll work on it). I looked at timetestedtools and read HorizontalMike’s info, all very helpful. I could not seem to find pic of exact combination of frog base pattern with same folded lateral and NO base markings as I have. It doesn’t take much to confuse me and that did it.

-- The two most rewardingly therapeutic hobbies are: woodworking and gardening. Life, relax & ENJOY!

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macmurf

12 posts in 2752 days


#9 posted 04-20-2017 08:43 PM

Here are few more pics of my 418. I bought this as one of 4 planes but have no use for it, especially now with rotator cuff going south. I’m thinking of listing for sale, not looking for pricing advice, just want to know if I represent it as original Sargent 418, am I being accurate/honest? If I’m reading things right this plane could be 100 yrs old? Sure looks to be in great shape for that age. Tried to get end grain. Judging from HorizontalMike’s pics above I’m guessing Brazilian Rosewood. Thanks again, never realized planes could be so interesting.

-- The two most rewardingly therapeutic hobbies are: woodworking and gardening. Life, relax & ENJOY!

View corelz125's profile

corelz125

334 posts in 885 days


#10 posted 04-21-2017 12:23 AM

Is there a difference in the front tote between the type 1 – 4?

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Don W

18608 posts in 2476 days


#11 posted 04-21-2017 12:45 AM

Mike was correct, the type 1 has kind of flat sides like he shows, then they rounded of to normal after that.

The funky tote was only on very early and they’re extremely rare.

-- http://timetestedtools.net - Collecting is an investment in the past, and the future.

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macmurf

12 posts in 2752 days


#12 posted 04-21-2017 05:08 PM

Sorry, I’m ignorant of different nuances (ie: type 1 – 4) between styles. I will measure tote (which I have always called the handle). Do I understand that my tote (flat sides) may be the “funky tote” referred to by Don? This plane came to me years ago as part of buyout of the home shop of a man who was retiring. He basically threw it in since I was taking 3 planes I thought I could use: Bailey #3, Sargent 407 & Stanley 100 (stamped 342) Squirrel Tail block plane (great for model ship building), the 418 was the only one left so he just “threw it in”. A rare day! If this plane is as special as it’s reputation seems to indicate, and judging by its condition and the quality of the other pieces I bought, it should be put to work by someone who can appreciate and utilize it, or maybe a collector. I just don’t like good tools going to waste, I feel responsible. I just gave two of my three ratcheting braces (perfect condition) to two recently retired friends who can use them (wooden boat building and musical instrument repair). Just couldn’t keep them when they could actually use them. Can post pics, markings, info of other planes if anyone is interested.
The Sargent 407 has some ugly chips on the blade edge. I could slow wet grind it down to new edge (in a couple of hours) but I have brand new Hock blade & breaker. Since I do use this plane would you change to the Hock or just keep the orig. for orig. sake and re-sharpen (I’ll keep the origs. regardless)?
Thanks again. Time to go make a few wood chips. Need sawdust therapy, now!
Made the mistake of turning the news on too early this morning.


-- The two most rewardingly therapeutic hobbies are: woodworking and gardening. Life, relax & ENJOY!

View HorizontalMike's profile

HorizontalMike

7747 posts in 2823 days


#13 posted 04-21-2017 06:56 PM


...[snip]...
The Sargent 407 has some ugly chips on the blade edge. I could slow wet grind it down to new edge (in a couple of hours) but I have brand new Hock blade & breaker. Since I do use this plane would you change to the Hock or just keep the orig. for orig. sake and re-sharpen (I ll keep the origs. regardless)?
Thanks again. Time to go make a few wood chips. Need sawdust therapy, now!
Made the mistake of turning the news on too early this morning.
- macmurf

  • What generation is the #407? Plain, VBM, [Sargent], other?
  • What stamp on blade/cutter?
  • Most blades can be sharpened without an issue.
    Your answer and images will help determine any advice given.


FWIW, I ended up putting a HOCK blade on my original #418 (pre-VBM) and it makes a great user.

-- HorizontalMike -- "Woodpeckers understand..."

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macmurf

12 posts in 2752 days


#14 posted 04-21-2017 08:44 PM

What can you decipher?
Sargent 407 (no VBM markings) pics:

-- The two most rewardingly therapeutic hobbies are: woodworking and gardening. Life, relax & ENJOY!

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HorizontalMike

7747 posts in 2823 days


#15 posted 04-22-2017 10:11 AM

macmurf,
What you have is a Type 5, post-VBM and pre-WWII. The types 4 & 5 make the best users, IMO. Anything earlier should probably be considered a collector only. FYI, the lateral adjusters on the earlier ones are more rare, and the base castings are thin and less durable. Your proposed idea of adding a HOCK blade and breaker to the above T-5 #407 should/would be fine.

-- HorizontalMike -- "Woodpeckers understand..."

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