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Forum topic by Carl10 posted 02-26-2017 02:48 PM 842 views 0 times favorited 19 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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Carl10

68 posts in 290 days


02-26-2017 02:48 PM

I am looking for all cyclone owners to post your performance. But I am asking for more than “really good” or very satisfied”

I have been looking into a cyclone and like many have found very little objective data. I initially started a discussion about the Super Dust Gorilla (SDG), but realized I should broaden my scope of input not only for myself but for others too. The initial comments about both the SDG and the V3000 were that drum sanders clog them up very quickly while others without sanders had very good separation (1.5 cups of dust from a filter cleaning after filling a 35 gallon drum).

To me separation is the most important aspect of the product and then determine the size of that product to your static pressure needs. (you may and probably do have a different opinion)

Since I have only seen one review that talks about separation (American Woodworker from 2006 – recommending the SDG 2 or 3HP or the similar sized Grizzly). Since separation is the whole point of a cyclone I would like to get feedback from real users about their experience, both for myself and possibly helping others in decisions. I have read about users having both bad a good experiences In your response could you please provide:

1) Model & HP (This is important as models and performance changes – for example the V3000 was all metal cone and now is molded)
2) Type of material in your bin (. i.e. is your discharge mostly fine powder from sanders?)
3) How much material gets past your filter to the bag/bin below filter. (Ideally after you clean your filter and then fill your bin, clean filter again and measure how much came through to the filter)
4) How long have you had your machine.

I know this is subjective, but it is a start.

Thanks again for your input!

Carl


19 replies so far

View JBrow's profile

JBrow

1269 posts in 753 days


#1 posted 02-26-2017 03:45 PM

Carl10,

1) Model & HP (This is important as models and performance changes – for example the V3000 was all metal cone and now is molded)

The ClearVue CV1800 Bundle was an upgrade from my old 1/2hp dust collector. The ClearVue Cv1800 and CV1800 Max both employ a 5 hp motor. As near as I can tell, the difference between the two units is the CV1800 Max offers a 16” impeller as opposed to the 15” impeller on the CV1800. The CV1800 Max accepts 8” pipe while the CV1800 accepts 6” pipe at the cyclone inlet. ClearVue offered a promotional upgrade to a 16” impeller from the nominal CV1800 15” impeller when I bought the machine.

ClearVue sells their equipment ala carte. The Bundles include almost everything needed to place the unit into service. The dust bin is not included. ClearVue seem to contemplate the use of PVC sewer and drain pipe for the central ducting system, although metal piping systems can be used.

When researching dust collectors, I was unsuccessful finding data concerning separation of the dust. I used the static pressure performance curves, filter performance, filter surface area, and price as my primary decision criteria. I believe is that greater dust separation is achieved with greater air flow in the cyclone. I also believe the inlet ramp directing air flow downward inside the cyclone improves separation. Increased filter surface area prolongs the period between filter cleanings, a chore I do not enjoy.

2) Type of material in your bin (. i.e. is your discharge mostly fine powder from sanders?)

The dust bin is a modified fiber drum that I had to purchase separately. It sets inside a sealed box (dust collection chamber) and the dust bin, with a rubber gasket around the rim of the fiber drum, slides in and out of the dust collection chamber. The dust collection chamber and the light weight fiber drum make emptying the dust bin much easier than fiddling around with toggle clamps and carrying a heavy metal drum.

The filter stack sets atop a fine dust collection bucket made of MDF and the clear plastic from which the ClearVue cyclone body is made. Very little dust collects in the fine dust collection bucket during normal use; probably because most of the fine dust lodges in the filters.

3) How much material gets past your filter to the bag/bin below filter. (Ideally after you clean your filter and then fill your bin, clean filter again and measure how much came through to the filter)

The filters offer 300 sq ft of filter area. The cyclone is connected to the shaper, jointer, planer, radial arm saw, band saw, table saw, drum sander, and a downdraft sanding table. The dust collector is consistently used when each tool is operated. I am a hobbyist but spend a lot of time in the workshop, so the dust collector gets a workout, but probably nowhere near the use that it would see in a production shop.

I observe a fair amount of fine dust that when I empty the dust collection bin after sanding at the downdraft table or the drum sander. My conclusion is that the machine is doing its job of separating even fine dust from the air stream. However, separation is not 100%.

I have cleaned the filters twice since installing the machine, when the manometer shows a drop in performance. The last filter cleaning was as thorough a cleaning as I could perform with the equipment I have. It was a compressed air backwash while the filter stack rested atop the fine dust bucket. I removed about 4 gallons of fine dust that made its way past the cyclone. I am pretty sure I left some dust behind in the filters.

4) How long have you had your machine.

I installed the ClearVue CV1800 bundle in August 2015 and began using it in November 2015.

View Redoak49's profile

Redoak49

2887 posts in 1822 days


#2 posted 02-26-2017 04:27 PM

Carl10 ..how about you tell us about your shop, what tools you use and what your budget is. You need to calculate your requirements before you start shopping.

If you are putting in a 5 hp CV or Oneida, you are looking at over $2000 for the cyclone and you will need a 30 amp dedicated circuit. You can very easily spend another $500-1000 on ducting, gates and hoses.

Hopefully, you have already made a survey of the dust collects and can share your research into operating characteristics and specs. The most important thing is the performance curves to start with and it meets your shop needs. Of course, separation is important but only after you size it correctly.

Are you looking at buying one or just collecting info.

View Fred Hargis's profile

Fred Hargis

4756 posts in 2327 days


#3 posted 02-26-2017 05:04 PM

Jbrow, I may not have this right but I’ve been talking to CV about their machines. The 16” impeller is optional on the CV1800. As I understand it, the CV1800 has a 6” inlet, while the CVmax has an 8” inlet. There may be some other things, I was only interested in the CV1800; but with a 16” impeller.

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

View AZWoody's profile

AZWoody

1138 posts in 1057 days


#4 posted 02-26-2017 05:56 PM



Jbrow, I may not have this right but I ve been talking to CV about their machines. The 16” impeller is optional on the CV1800. As I understand it, the CV1800 has a 6” inlet, while the CVmax has an 8” inlet. There may be some other things, I was only interested in the CV1800; but with a 16” impeller.

- Fred Hargis

I have the CV1800 with the 16” impeller and the 6” inlet. Because it’s pretty much a kit form, it’s easy for them to send all the parts for the CV1800 and just switch out the impeller for the CVMax.

It works great but if I was really wanting to do the best, I would keep my main trunk 8” but the cost of jumping from the 6” to 8” was pretty expensive and I’m using S&D pvc. The pipe isn’t the main problem in the price but the cost of fittings will make your jaw drop when you compare the 2.

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AZWoody

1138 posts in 1057 days


#5 posted 02-26-2017 05:59 PM

I can’t add much to the comparisons because I did not have that much use with the filters. My idea was to have the actual unit in the room next to the shop with the filters in the shop to return the air.

This thing is LOUD and most of the noise is from the exhaust so the noise gets pumped right back to the shop.
After using it a while with the filters in the other room with the machine, I decided to just run a pipe through the ceiling of the shop which is 16’ above the ground.

What I did have in the filters was very little fine dust as the separation seemed to keep most everything in the dust bin, which is a 30 gallon metal trash can.

As an aside, I do have 2 of the filters for the Clearvue dust collector that I do not use if anyone wants to buy them. They have very, very few hours on them.

View Carl10's profile

Carl10

68 posts in 290 days


#6 posted 02-26-2017 06:54 PM

Jbrow -thanks for the input. You mention your last cleaning was 4 gallons of dust which sounds like a lot but in perspective we don’t know how many drums of discharge have been emptied or how big the drum. Also percentage wise how much of your collection in the bin was from sanding versus sawing. I know it has been a long time between cleanings, but if you could approximate that would be helpful.

Redoak – I am sort of starting with a clean slate. My old shop had a Jet 1100 Bag DC that I rarely used because it was a mobile connection scheme that was always more hassle than just putting on a mask. But shop was always a mess. I am in the middle of a major historic house renovation that included lowering my basement here in MI 18” for 8’ ceilings. I have not built my shop yet, but have a lot of woodworking to do in the months ahead.

My shop will be small (~16’x21’) with my longest 6” duct run netting about 5 1/2” of SP (Just for ducting) per the Bill Pentz Calculator. For some a 2HP would allow them to get by but I would prefer better airflow of 900+ CFM at my furthest point. I originally looked at a Thein baffle with my Jet but if I don’t connect to my tools now I likely wont later and the Jet is too small for any ducting. I then looked at getting a used larger DC and putting the Super Dust Deputy on it but I just didn’t feel it was going to give me the performance I was looking for in a system.

Onto cyclones, the journey has just begun. The more you look behind the curtain the more smoke and mirrors you see. There are a lot of 3HP motors on systems that are really 4 or 5 HP in power draw. So unless they are really inefficient motors, they are making a really strong 3HP motor that will squash a typical 3 HP motor. Oneida even markets their 2&3 HP motors are really 2.5 and 3.5 HP (but that info is buried in the competitive data section). Laguna’s 3HP motor draws 22A versus CV’s 21A 5HP. So to me a HP number is meaningless. CFM is widely published by the manufacturer but few describe the method for testing and fewer yet are supported by real data. Jets latest cyclones don’t even have performance curves. There are only 2 competitive tests I have come across that tested cyclones: 2013 Wood magazine review and the AWW 2006 review. Both recommend Oneida. The Penn State had good separation but a rattle issue was noted in the last test. They also don’t offer cyclones anymore. Grizzly mimics the CV design somewhat and was noted to have good separation.

JDS, Jet and Laguna’s old model all seemed to have identical cyclone designs (almost like one design rebranded). Laguna has a new design that appears to perform much better but no competitive testing. The only test I have found was by Toolmetrix who only compared Laguna models and only seems to test Laguna products! Secondly what appears to be a great separation test of fines is suspect to me. It is a 5 gallon bucket of fines very slowly fed into the machine. I am still waiting for real world input on those units. Although I have 8’ ceilings I am still at a space premium and smaller would be better. Right now I am expecting only a larger unit will perform to my needs.

My shop will have a table saw, miter saw, 13” planer, 6” Jointer, Router table and a small sanding station (old 5” belt unit – not used much). At some point a drum sander may be in the mix. Since I have a small shop the heavy hitters will be located very close to the Cyclone.

So I am looking to better understand what units separate the best and then decide if their unit will provide the CFM I want. So the 3HP SDG hit the sweet spot the Grizzly is a close second. The Temptest sounded like a good performer but the rattle in the test article and the fact I cant get one leaves that out. The lack of separation data information on any unit is disappointing. That is why I started this thread to see what real world experience shows (subjective as it may be).

Carl

View Manitario's profile

Manitario

2551 posts in 2716 days


#7 posted 02-26-2017 07:07 PM

1) Model & HP
Clearvue cv1800, with 5hp motor
2) Type of material in your bin
Basically everything that the DC sucks up; there is < 1tbsp of fine dust in the clean out beneath the filters each time I empty the bin.
3) How much material gets past your filter to the bag/bin below filter.
see above
4) How long have you had your machine.
6 years.
I have a large (1000sqft) shop with the longest run ~30ft. Have the measured CFM data for each of my machines if you’re interested.

-- Sometimes the creative process requires foul language. -- Charles Neil

View Redoak49's profile

Redoak49

2887 posts in 1822 days


#8 posted 02-26-2017 07:55 PM

Manitario- I would really like to hear what cfm and static pressure you have at each of your machines, the size ducting, and method of measurement.

For comparison, the data for my 5 hp Oneida SDG is all in my blogs along with test method

View JAAune's profile

JAAune

1769 posts in 2150 days


#9 posted 02-26-2017 08:12 PM

I don’t have concrete data but just observational data based upon memory. Mine is a Murphy Rodgers I picked up used so I’m not 100% sure on the specs but I’m pretty sure I’ve got the MR7 13” fan with a high-efficiency cyclone (catches more fines) and a 3HP motor. It’s been in operation for roughly a year and a half.

Mr7 Fan Curve Chart

If I don’t let the bins fill up too high, I estimate I empty about eight 55 gallon drums of dust before blowing the filters down with compressed air and emptying the filter clean-out buckets. This would be between 1-2 gallons of fine powder. Neglecting to empty the drums before they get full will clog the filters with fine dust and allows some chips to reach the filters. Otherwise, only the finest dust gets past the cyclone.

This is better than the old Oneida I’ve had experience with but I’ve never used a Clearview so I cannot compare performance to that machine. The difference in cyclone height between my Murphy Rodgers and the old Oneida is about 3 feet. According to Bill Pentz, cyclones need height to separate fine dust so those compact units sold to hobbyists will not keep the filters nearly as clean.

-- See my work at http://remmertstudios.com and http://altaredesign.com

View JBrow's profile

JBrow

1269 posts in 753 days


#10 posted 02-26-2017 09:10 PM

Carl10,

My dust collection drum is 40 gallons (+/-). I made no effort to track the number of times the drum was emptied before I cleaned the filters. Low density shavings require more frequent disposal of the debris than when collecting the relatively high density sanding dust so I doubt the number of times the collection drum is emptied can provide much meaningful information about separation efficiency. For example, I have to empty the drum after a planning session but can completely sand an entire project and still have plenty of the room to spare in the collection drum.

Similarly I am not sure how to answer the question related to ratio of collection of sanding dust versus non-sanding dust. I use the drum sander primary to flatten glued panels, removing somewhere between 1/32” to 1/16” of total material from panels 12” to 24” wide. I use the down draft sanding table for random orbital sanding of all but the extremely large parts, generally from 120 grit through the grits to 180 grit. As a result, a fair amount of sanding dust is digested by the cyclone, but then for your purposes, I suspect this information leaves you still wondering. What I am able to say is that even though the manometer suggested a drop in dust collector performance, just before I cleaned the filters, the system had plenty of suction.

I suspect that at the end of the day, a tall cyclone with a long tamper from about 20” to 24” to about 6” with lots of downward directed air flow results in the best possible separation. Separation of larger and heavier debris will probably be more efficient than that of small and much less massive fine dust. Maximizing the surface area of the filters will lengthen the time between required filter cleanings. Also, minimizing the amount of sanding dust sucked into the dust collector should greatly extend the time between filter cleanings.

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JBrow

1269 posts in 753 days


#11 posted 02-26-2017 09:11 PM

Fred Hargis,

Your info sounds correct to me. I cannot offer any evidence that a 16” impeller is better than the 15” impeller that is standard on the CV1800. But I have to believe there is at least a slight improvement in air flow and performance even with a 6” main trunk line. I am glad that mine came with the 16” impeller.

View Redoak49's profile

Redoak49

2887 posts in 1822 days


#12 posted 02-26-2017 09:49 PM

Pentz mentions that most woodworking cyclones separate out 99.9% of dust over 30 microns.

It appears that as the dust gets much smaller it is much more difficult to separate. The dust that is below 10 microns is the stuff that just hangs in the air and does not settle out.

While this post is very informative, I want to mention a critical part. We spend a lot of time in forum discussing things like ducting and recently separation ratio. However, I do not think enough is said about capture. As a group we tend not to use the blade guard on our saws. But, by not using them with the dust collection capability, we are putting a lot of dust in the air. For myself, I intend to spend more effort on the collection at the point of origin. Dust collection on my oscillating spindle sander is terrible and spits fine dust in the air. Dust collection on my router table and drill press are not great. I have the capacity with my 5 hp cyclone and am not using it well.

I did make an improvement with sanding by building a down draft sanding table and hope to do better on my other tools.

View Manitario's profile

Manitario

2551 posts in 2716 days


#13 posted 02-26-2017 10:04 PM

Here’s the data from the last shop that I had, which was the most efficient set up for ducting runs; one long main with drops. My current shop has the DC in an awkward place that requires two main runs which cuts down on the CFM a bit. I use 6” mains and drops; any reduction in diameter is done just before the machine. Also have very minimal flex hose. I measured the data with a pitot tube and a Dwyer digital manometer; both can be bought off Ebay for fairly cheap. I had tried to measure with an anemometer but I found it too variable.
First set of numbers is static pressure, second set is CFM. Final column is duct size. The first drop (and best performance) was the mitre saw. The TS was the last drop ~40ft away from the DC. As you can see, final duct size has a large effect on CFM!

Bandsaw 6.2 734 2×4” ducts
Router Table 7.4 437 1X4” and 1X2.25” duct
Planer 5.1 573 5”
Jointer 6.3 518 5”
Tablesaw 6.8 664 2×4” ducts
Mitersaw 1113 6”

As an aside; if these are the accurately measured numbers I get from a 5hp DC, it tells me that the claims that I read about people getting 1500 CFM from their 2hp HF unit with 4” main ducting are probably not correct.

-- Sometimes the creative process requires foul language. -- Charles Neil

View Carl10's profile

Carl10

68 posts in 290 days


#14 posted 02-27-2017 02:32 AM

@Manitario – Thanks for the input. Could you elaborate on the type of material you generate? ( Mostly drum sanding, router dust,etc.) It appears the fine drum sander dust is the toughest to deal with. Also can you elaborate on how much dust you generate from a filter cleaning? Thanks for the data on your shop performance, it is too bad you are taking such a hit on your CFMs. I agree about the HF claims, heck if someone claimed their HF unit produced that high of CFM at the inlet I would be suspect.
@JAAune – That sounds like a massive cyclone! Approximating from your numbers (50 of 55 gallons [not filled to the top] x 8 barrels with 2 gallons of bypass = 0.5% Bypass. Can you elaborate on what type of dust you generate? ($64K question is do you use a drum sander a significant amount)
@JBrow – you are correct about the density of material collected impacting the results. In Fred’s case he can watch his pressure drop as he uses his sander, You apparently do not have as severe of a bypass issue or pressure drop (which is what he suspected).
@Redoak49 – I completely agree with your comment about capturing the dust at the source. That is why I want plenty of airflow at all my tools for the sometimes dual points of collection.

Thanks for the input and keep ‘em coming!

Carl

View JAAune's profile

JAAune

1769 posts in 2150 days


#15 posted 02-27-2017 02:59 AM


@JAAune – That sounds like a massive cyclone! Approximating from your numbers (50 of 55 gallons [not filled to the top] x 8 barrels with 2 gallons of bypass = 0.5% Bypass. Can you elaborate on what type of dust you generate? ($64K question is do you use a drum sander a significant amount)

- Carl10

It is very tall. It stands about 11’ high to the top of the motor but I’ve got 14’ ceilings so height isn’t an issue. I’m actually considering raising the entire machine so the duct will be closer to the ceiling.

The bulk of the dust comes from a planer with a helical head. Next biggest producer is a CNC machine. The third one is an edge sander. Fourth would be a router table. Bandsaws, a jointer and a tablesaw finish off the list but those last two probably produce the least amount of dust.

No drum or wide belt sanders.

-- See my work at http://remmertstudios.com and http://altaredesign.com

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