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Dust Gorilla or V series Owners performance input requested

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Forum topic by Carl10 posted 02-24-2017 06:18 PM 6142 views 0 times favorited 46 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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Carl10

68 posts in 293 days


02-24-2017 06:18 PM

Topic tags/keywords: super dust gorilla v3000 dust collector cyclone separation

I am looking at the Super Dust Gorilla 3HP (SDG) and was interested in real world separation results. Since I have only seen one review that talks about separation (American Woodworker from 2006 – recommending the SDG 2 or 3HP or the similar sized Grizzly). Since separation is the whole point of a cyclone I would like to get feedback from real users about their experience, both for myself and possibly helping others in decisions. I have read about users having both bad a good experiences In your response could you please provide:

1) Model & HP (for V series please also state steel or molded version)
2) Type of material in your bin (. i.e. is your discharge small shavings and dust from saws and routers or mostly fine powder from sanders?)
3) How much material gets past your filter to the bag/bin below filter.
4) How often do you clean your filter and how much approximately comes out (You do clean your filter.).
5) How long have you had your machine.

I know this is subjective, but it is a start.

Thanks again for your input!

Carl


46 replies so far

View pintodeluxe's profile

pintodeluxe

5464 posts in 2649 days


#1 posted 02-24-2017 06:59 PM

Sorry I can’t comment on that model. It does look identical to my Tempest 2 hp cyclone, which has fantastic separation. A sprinkling in the cleanout, if anything with extended use.

In general I have found the tall cyclones have stellar separation. Hopefully you can get some model-specific information with your question here. Most of the complaints I have read were reviewers expecting 100% collection. One reviewer even said he weighed the dust somehow, and was complaining that according to his calculations it only captured 98% of the dust.

To me, that is splitting hairs.

-- Willie, Washington "If You Choose Not To Decide, You Still Have Made a Choice" - Rush

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Carl10

68 posts in 293 days


#2 posted 02-25-2017 02:25 AM

pintodeluxe,

Thanks for the input. That is good to know but it appears PSI no longer makes cyclones. Several weeks ago I went to their site and the link to cyclones was dead. Today the link is gone from their site. I am glad you have good separation, that is key. From what I could gather they use a neutral vane that is strictly extending the inlet tube into the upper body, They do not appear to use an air ramp. Out of curiosity do you remember if your impeller is backward curved? Also could you tell me the circumference of the upper body (just below the inlet).

Thanks,

Carl

View pmayer's profile

pmayer

987 posts in 2901 days


#3 posted 02-25-2017 04:04 AM

Hi Pintodeluxe,

With all due respect, 98% separation in a cyclone would be horrible, and even 99% would not even be close to acceptable to me. 98% would mean that for every 50 gallon barrel full of dust, you would end up with a gallon of dust in the filter. I would SWAG that you’d see a 25 – 40% decline in CFM by the time you emptied the drum every time. And you would have a very hard time cleaning that much dust out of a filter without removing the filter and taking a leaf blower to it. I would much rather have a single stage dust collection system, where I could just smack the filters and knock down the dust, than a cyclone that got only 98% separation, or even 99%

The good cyclones run well above 99% separation. For each time that you empty the drum, you should see no more than a couple tablespoons of dust in the filter basin. 2 tablespoons for each 50 gallon drum = 99.98%. Two tablespoons vs. 1 gallon is not splitting hairs in my view. I would suggest thinking differently about the math here. You’re thinking 98 is almost equal to 100, so what’s the dif, right? The way that I think about it is that 1 gallon that you get at 98% is more than 100 TIMES more dust than the 2 Tablespoons you get with 99.98%.

-- PaulMayer, http://www.vernswoodgoods.com

View Fred Hargis's profile

Fred Hargis

4757 posts in 2329 days


#4 posted 02-25-2017 12:47 PM

I measured the separation of MY SDG at Oneida’s request. My method was to empty the bin and clean the filter as absolutely good as I could (this was a multi step process which got all the dust out that was going to come out). I think used the cyclone until the dust bin was full. I measured the height of the chips in the bin and calculated the volume because I didn’t have the means to weigh it. I then cleaned the filter again, exactly as before but this time I captured all the fines in a container. I then measured that volume. When all was said and done I got 98.4% separation, Oneida claims 99%. Close enough that I call it even. Like Pmayer said, I consider that woefully inadequate and my complaints on forums is what led to Oneida contacting me to “help” with the issue. In the end I wound up working with a Mr. Witter (President and founder), and after he found out I was getting 98.4%, I never heard from them again. I hope to someday (this year maybe) replace this POS with a CV. When I’m running a drum sander a lot, I can actually see the filter clog with a gauge I have on the unit. I had to put the gauge on to keep track of the many times I needed to clean the fines out. The issue with the Oneida units is the basic design, if you read the Pentz criteria the Oneida doesn’t follow anything close to the what he found to work best.

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

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cabmaker

1621 posts in 2645 days


#5 posted 02-25-2017 05:02 PM

You will not be disappointed in the 3 hp gust gorilla,,,,,,thats what i have in my home shop.

daytime shop,,,,,we have the 5hp dust gorilla

Both setups are fitted with metal spiral pipe.

The only time i find dust in the filter pan is if the barrel gets full and then you get some bypass

At my home shop , I removed the filter about 6 yrs ago and vented to the outside with a flapper hood in the gable

Works well.

If i had to select a unit for best all around in both construction and design it would be a super dust gorilla.

Enjoy the journey!

View Carl10's profile

Carl10

68 posts in 293 days


#6 posted 02-25-2017 06:35 PM

pmayer – Thanks for the reminder on perspective, a small difference can result in a lot of dust!

Fred – I have seen your comments a feel your frustration. I am sure you have impacted at least one sale if not more and I would think Oneida would have done more to resolve the issue.

cabmaker – glad to hear you are happy with both your units and their performance

Carl

View Redoak49's profile

Redoak49

2894 posts in 1825 days


#7 posted 02-25-2017 06:43 PM

I have a 5 hp SDG and have absolutely no issues with separation. I have almost no dust in my filters and have emptied the bin out many times. I also monitor the filter with a gauge and have no problem with clogging. I have had my SDG for about 10 months.

Of course Pentz is critical of the Oneida as he designed the CV and Oneida is the competitor.

Please note that I do not have a drum sander. Most of what is in my bin is from the saw and planer. If you have one and use it a lot, you are generating a large amount of fine dust and you will get more dust into the filter.

View Fred Hargis's profile

Fred Hargis

4757 posts in 2329 days


#8 posted 02-25-2017 06:52 PM

For the record (and I’m really not trying to start a fight) I haven’t read anything Pentz said that was critical of Oneida’s design, and he doesn’t own CV (though he gets a small royalty from the sales) so he really doesn’t have a competitive issue with Oneida. Any criticism above was my own. I’ve only heard Pentz explain what his findings were on separation and how he come to the design criteria he settled on. On the other hand, Bill Witter was mildly critical of Pentz in phone conversions with me. But all my comments are based on my own experience, and as they say: YMMV. Carl, regarding impacting Oneida’s sales: I have no idea, I can only hope that’s happened. If so, I’m suspect someone wound up with better performance using a different brand.

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

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Redoak49

2894 posts in 1825 days


#9 posted 02-25-2017 07:15 PM

Just as another point of data….I just went down and emptied my SDG. I very carefully looked at my bin and filter.

The bin was full at 35 gallons.

I then took the time and used compresses air to carefully clean out the filter and measured the volume of that plus whatever had already fallen in the bottom. I got about a cup and half of fine dust or 0.09375 gallons.

So by volume, 99.73% went into the bin and 0.26% into the filter.

How do I explain the difference in separation results? The only difference is that I do not run a drum sander and the finer dust may be harder to separate.

A single experimental result is just that. In order to have meaningful data you need to do this multiple times.

In addition, I monitor my dust filter pressure and it stays within a narrow range and does not indicate filter clogging.

View Fred Hargis's profile

Fred Hargis

4757 posts in 2329 days


#10 posted 02-25-2017 07:36 PM

I agree with your conclusion about the fine dust, that’s what I have experienced as well. It performs quite well for everything else. Also with the need to repeat the test (something I’m not planning on doing). I started my filter cleaning process by setting it on the floor (covering the top) and giving it a hand slap around the circumference, then the air gun from the outside. After that, I laid it on it’s side and picked each end up about 18” and dropped it. Rotate the filter about 90° and repeat. After doing that 4 times stand it back up…in my case a lot more of the fines fell out. As an aside, the only time I ever found anything in that canister that clamps on the bottom was the one time I over filled the dust bin, then some of the chips that blew by wound up in there.

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

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Redoak49

2894 posts in 1825 days


#11 posted 02-25-2017 09:47 PM

Given all of the above, there are a couple of things that I want to point out.

Smaller particles are more hazardous because they can be drawn more deeply into the lungs.

Sanding seems to generate very fine particles even under 1 micron. It is probably the worst operation in a shop in terms of small particle generation.

Cyclones are very good at separating larger particles above 30 microns. The efficiency drops off as you get smaller. I guess the real question is how each cyclone design handles these under 10 micron particles. To determine this would take a very good research study. As I have read today, sampling and measuring these particle sizes is difficult.

I want a cyclone with sufficient capability to suck up as much as possible. I have that but need to work on the capture of the dust at the point they are generated, dust hoods and such. In my opinion, this is the most difficult part. I really am not too worried if my cyclone efficiency is 98%, 99% or 99.9%. It just means I may have to clean the filter slightly more often. There is little doubt that using a drum sander results lots of very fine dust that needs a good cyclone design. Whose design is the best? I have yet to see any test results that are credible in terms of separating small particles.

The bottom line is to remove the particles and avoid breathing them.

Since sanding creates lots of fine particles, I want my ROS sander to be efficient at sucking up the particles. For that reason, it has to be designed well and connected to a vacuum because they have a much higher static pressure. I use a HEPA rated vac for my sander and an air filter.

View Carl10's profile

Carl10

68 posts in 293 days


#12 posted 02-26-2017 01:47 AM

Redoak – It is good to hear your results and I appreciate you taking the time to measure your bypass. I too would be happy with your results, but I do not have a drum sander (yet). I understand and agree with the concern of the small particle issue. I believe the human eye can not see smaller than 40 micron particles, so all the dust that got through the old 30 micron single stage bags was still filling the air…we just couldn’t see it!

Fred – It sounds like the sander is the weakness for the Oneida’s. I talked with a V3000 owner and he has similar problems with caking on his filter after a couple of 35 gallons full (he has a sander as well). I had previously looked at the Thein baffle, and although it does a decent separation job it does not seem to compare to a cyclone (both in separation and efficiency). What it does allow is to adjust the baffle opening and I believe vortex height to fine tune the material to separate. So you could make it great at fines but terrible for chips or vise versa. What some guys did was put a baffle right at their planner to pre-filter the chips. I don’t know if you have found any feedback from CV owners that have sanders about separation. Regardless which Cyclone you use long term a pre separator might help if that is a general cyclone weakness. I have seen a lot of comments about how great they are just not specifics of they are used.

Thanks for your comments guys.

Carl

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pmayer

987 posts in 2901 days


#13 posted 02-26-2017 02:33 AM

“I really am not too worried if my cyclone efficiency is 98%, 99% or 99.9%”

This is a common perception until people end up with a machine that only separates at 98.X% and they realize what an absolute pain it is to maintain, and then they hear stories about other guys with an efficient cyclone that almost never has to be cleaned. I think that the cyclone manufacturers do a disservice to consumers by publishing numbers this way, but it is easy for them to all sound really good with this model of measurement so why not? It makes the differences between 98% to 99.9% sound trivial, and that could not be further from the truth.

If the comparisons were based on “tablespoons in filter / 50 gallons in drum” which is really what matters (who cares how much is in the drum, you don’t have to clean that), now the comparison of machine A (98%) to machine B (99.98%) would be 100:1. If it was stated that way, I think people would care. If something is important, as I believe this measurement absolutely is, it’s hard to believe that people wouldn’t be indifferent if one machine were 100 times better at it than the other machine. But people think, well it’s not even 2% better so who cares. Another way to look at it; machine A puts 9900% more dust (that’s not a typo; nearly 10,000%) into the filter than machine B. If the inefficiencies were compared in this way, which is equally mathematically correct and far more indicative of the experiential difference, then people would have a much better understanding of the difference in what they would find in their filter when it was time to clean it.

-- PaulMayer, http://www.vernswoodgoods.com

View pintodeluxe's profile

pintodeluxe

5464 posts in 2649 days


#14 posted 02-26-2017 05:00 AM


pintodeluxe,

Thanks for the input. That is good to know but it appears PSI no longer makes cyclones. Several weeks ago I went to their site and the link to cyclones was dead. Today the link is gone from their site. I am glad you have good separation, that is key. From what I could gather they use a neutral vane that is strictly extending the inlet tube into the upper body, They do not appear to use an air ramp. Out of curiosity do you remember if your impeller is backward curved? Also could you tell me the circumference of the upper body (just below the inlet).

Thanks,

Carl

- Carl10

Carl,
The circumference you asked about is 64”. Mine is a standard 14 or 15 inch impeller, not backwardly inclined.

Pmayer-
Okay, you have me convinced to pay more attention to the separation % numbers. I never saw a spec for my 2 hp Tempest, but it must be very close to 100% based on your explanation.

Duct layout also has something to do with it as well, especially decreasing turbulence near the cyclone inlet.

Great discussion, very interesting.

-- Willie, Washington "If You Choose Not To Decide, You Still Have Made a Choice" - Rush

View pmayer's profile

pmayer

987 posts in 2901 days


#15 posted 02-26-2017 10:04 AM

“Duct layout also has something to do with it as well, especially decreasing turbulence near the cyclone inlet.”

This is a good point. The last stretch of duct that the dust travels before the cyclone matters a lot, to let the dust stabilize before entering the cyclone. The CV guys told me that ideally you have a 10’ straight pipe coming out of the cyclone before it makes any turns, but in most hobbyist shops that isn’t likely. But at least with that understanding you can do what you can in the space that you have. A few feet of straight pipe is better than no feet.

As redoak pointed out, particle size is a huge factor. I’ve heard a lot of cyclone owners complain about clogging with sanding dust. Before I got a CV I had a single stage Jet canister system before they added the wok inside of it. What a nightmare. Sanding dust didn’t land in the bag until the filter was so full it couldn’t take any more. I read about one woodworker who was having a similar experience as Fred with his SDG and he stopped using it for his drum sander altogether which improved the situation on the SDG a lot. Instead he bought a 1.5 hp single stage system with a bag and hooked it directly to the sander, and he just smacks down the bag ever so often which is a lot easier than cleaning the filter on a cyclone. Not ideal, but “good enough”.

Carl, I hope we get some input on your original question, as this would be interesting data. I hear a wide variance on separation experience from SDG owners (as we’ve already seen here with only a couple data points), and I haven’t heard or read much from V Systems owners.

-- PaulMayer, http://www.vernswoodgoods.com

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