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1950's Powermatic 60 8" Joiner - Electrical Question

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Forum topic by magaoitin posted 02-08-2017 08:01 PM 1113 views 0 times favorited 7 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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magaoitin

246 posts in 789 days


02-08-2017 08:01 PM

I picked up an 8” Powermatic Joiner at an auction last year, with the ill conceived notion I would be restoring it once I got my shop finished. I have little to no experience with 3 phase motors, more specifically motor controllers, and have a question for any electricians or restorers reading.


My main question is what motor starter-ON/OFF switch would fit in the original single gang box?




The machine has an after market NEMA enclosure bolted on the side covering the original J-box. This houses a fairly new ON/OFF switch, Controller, and thermal overload breaker.







I hooked the motor directly up to a VFD and it runs great, but now have an issue with rewiring the motor starter assembly. I don’t know how an “original” 1951 Powermatic was wired or what model of ON/OFF switch was used, that would fit in a single gang box.




This is a 3 phase 220v, 1 1/2 HP motor. From what I can tell it is the original motor (the Nameplate lists the Frame Size as 203 and for the most part that frame designation was rerated in 1952 to a 182, then rerated again in ‘64 to a 143T).

I hav e been searching online for a 3 phase 220V motor starter, but everything I have found so far is much much bigger than the single gang box.


I found an Allen Bradley switch on eBay for $30 and while it looks like the right Phase, Voltage, and HP for my machine it looks bigger than a single gang box.





I’m not even 100% sure this switch would work, much less if it would fit.

-- Jeff ~ Tacoma Wa.


7 replies so far

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MrUnix

6015 posts in 2038 days


#1 posted 02-08-2017 11:05 PM

I’m a bit confused by your question… If you are going to use a VFD, then you can rip the old starter out by the roots as it’s not needed. Or are you planning on hooking the machine up some place that actually has three phase power, so will be using the machines starter instead of the VFD?

Cheers,
Brad

-- Brad in FL - In Dog I trust... everything else is questionable

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alittleoff

447 posts in 1116 days


#2 posted 02-08-2017 11:06 PM

With a vfd you shouldn’t need the starter any more. Read your paperwork on the vfd if you have it. It should require only an single pole switch to start an stop it. Most have an 12 or 24 volt output for a switch. Again you need the paper on the vfd.
Gerald

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magaoitin

246 posts in 789 days


#3 posted 02-08-2017 11:49 PM

Sorry about that, the VFD was only hooked up to test the motor, it is going to be installed on a 20” bandsaw I have so I can take advantage of the variable speed.

I have a Static Phase Converter I plan on using for this machine, so I need to get the motor starter issue corrected so it functions like its plugged into a 3 phase outlet.

-- Jeff ~ Tacoma Wa.

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MrUnix

6015 posts in 2038 days


#4 posted 02-08-2017 11:54 PM

Ok… next question. What is wrong with the IEC starter that is on there now? Are you just looking to upgrade to a NEMA starter or is the existing starter not working?

BTW- there is very little difference between a single phase and a three phase starter, and in fact, most starters can do either (three phase is just one extra wire).

Cheers,
Brad

-- Brad in FL - In Dog I trust... everything else is questionable

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magaoitin

246 posts in 789 days


#5 posted 02-09-2017 12:06 AM

Well it’s 50-50 reasoning (and maybe flawed at that!)

Part of it is that I don’t like a big grey box mounted on the outside of the machine, and the other part is the current wiring has 2 or 3 wires that have come loose and I cant figure out where they go.

I have contacted the manufacturer of the thermal overload and controller, but their tech department has not gotten back to me (for 4 weeks now), and I cannot find a wiring diagram online for the specific model of controller&overload to figure out what wire goes where to the 12v on/off switches.They have changed/upgraded their controllers. It is AutomationDirect.com parts, but their spec sheets don’t give me enough info to know the specifics of “put the wire from the ON switch to terminal A and the wire form the OFF switch to terminal B, type of info. I need it dumbed down that far since I have never really worked on a 3 phase motor.

I have the room to put the Static Phase Converter inside the cabinet, but there wouldn’t be enough room for both boxes.

-- Jeff ~ Tacoma Wa.

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MrUnix

6015 posts in 2038 days


#6 posted 02-09-2017 01:10 AM

According to the manual, there were three options for that jointer.. a straight manual on/off switch, a NEMA starter with remote control station, and a NEMA starter with a low voltage remote control station. The manual switch was most likely used for single phase control of a motor that had built in thermal protection. The other two would have used a momentary push button (NO Start/NC stop) in conjunction with a NEMA starter box hanging off the machine somewhere.

If you want to go back to original, you would need the NEMA starter, with heaters sized appropriately for your motor load, and the momentary push button control station (three wire control). The choice of using LVC would depend on what starter you get and it’s contactor control voltage requirement.

A better option IMO would be to use the existing IEC starter and just wire it for three wire control. You could mount it inside the cabinet along with your SPC and use the existing outlet box in the cabinet to mount the control station. If you provide more info about the IEC starter, and perhaps a better close up picture, I’m sure it wouldn’t be too difficult to figure out what wire goes where.

Cheers,
Brad

PS: If it were mine, I’d just get another VFD for it and rip out all that PO installed stuff… they are now as cheap or cheaper than a SPC, and the SPC will reduce your motors horsepower by about 30%, dropping it down to about 1hp (and provides unbalanced phases to the motor, causing it to run a bit hotter).

-- Brad in FL - In Dog I trust... everything else is questionable

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TopamaxSurvivor

18092 posts in 3515 days


#7 posted 02-09-2017 06:05 PM

What was originally in the single gang box was probably a 3 pole manual switch with overloads on 2 phases. It is doubtful you will find a replacement that will fit in the single gang box these days.

-- Bob in WW ~ "some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence

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