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Type 2 Sargent frog replacement question

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Forum topic by luthierwnc posted 02-03-2017 11:34 PM 916 views 0 times favorited 51 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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luthierwnc

143 posts in 1616 days


02-03-2017 11:34 PM

Hi All, I just won a mis-marked Sargent 5418 plane with a damaged horseshoe-type frog. It is in working order but the lateral and the back of of the frog were broken off. Type 2 frogs in this width don’t seem to come-up very often. I contacted an Ebay vendor who found and put up for auction a good looking Type 3 frog. I have that in the watch list but thought I’d see if the older model could be found before I pull the trigger.

This isn’t a collector plane and I don’t have any philosophical problems mixing and matching parts. I also have some Brazilian rosewood scraps to fix the busted tote. If anyone (particularly Don or Horizontal Mike) think the bases are a close-enough match (given the thickness changes in the base between those two iterations), I’d love to hear the story.

Thanks for looking, Skip


51 replies so far

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HorizontalMike

7664 posts in 2754 days


#1 posted 02-04-2017 12:35 AM

Wow, that IS TOUGH. I’d help but only have one #5418 in my collection. Good luck in hunting. FWIW, it sure seems to be much tougher to find deals since I started pumping Sargents on LJs (and yes many have/are telling me so). Sorry.

Keep the faith…

-- HorizontalMike -- "Woodpeckers understand..."

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luthierwnc

143 posts in 1616 days


#2 posted 02-04-2017 02:42 AM

Thanks! Your site has been a big help. That’s how I know to expect (won’t know til it gets here) thinner iron on the bottom than later versions. Except for less iron at the mouth, the underside of the frogs look compatible. I won’t make any decisions until I have it in hand. When it arrives I’ll post a couple shots for the archives.

You may not be driving prices as high as your detractors claim. I got this for eleven bucks—possibly because it was listed as a Stanley 418 because of a replacement blade. The bottom 2/3 of the tote is definitely rosewood. The top third might have been in the same collision that took-out the back of the frog. I hope the guy didn’t say what I would have.

I got a VBM 414 a couple years ago that also had a Stanley iron. I had to file the screw slot a touch wider to keep the ball end of the lateral from binding. A five-minute job but it wasn’t a drop-in replacement.

Cheers, sh

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Don W

18526 posts in 2407 days


#3 posted 02-05-2017 03:26 PM

the type 2 amd 3 frogs were the same. I guess you can see enough of the top to identify it as a type 2. I didn’t look close enough. The type 3 will work however.

-- http://timetestedtools.net - Collecting is an investment in the past, and the future.

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Don W

18526 posts in 2407 days


#4 posted 02-05-2017 03:27 PM

.

-- http://timetestedtools.net - Collecting is an investment in the past, and the future.

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HorizontalMike

7664 posts in 2754 days


#5 posted 02-05-2017 04:47 PM

Skip,
Can you confirm a couple of things (or add images) to help us…
  • Is the brass adjuster nut pure brass, or does it have a steel insert?
  • Are the frog nuts on the base square or round?

-- HorizontalMike -- "Woodpeckers understand..."

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luthierwnc

143 posts in 1616 days


#6 posted 02-05-2017 06:00 PM

Thanks Gents!

I ordered the Type 3 frog on Ebay figuring I’d rather have it and have to sell it than wait forever for another to surface. The plane is due Monday or Tuesday so all I have to go on right now are the pictures from the auction. There isn’t a rear-view of the adjuster nut. I’m sorta going on the overall arch of the frog in the shot I included. Except for the width, it’s a dead-ringer for the T2 in both or your comparisons. The horseshoe indentation is shallow and smooth. The angled supports to either side of the lateral adjustment area have parallel sides and appear to end unbroken at the original line of the arch.

That said, the frog I just ordered (shown below) has elements of several models. It has a folded lateral but it also has a center support between the two screws. My guess is that Sargent was constantly fiddling with the design and marketed new generations based on the base. It’s just a guess.

More news when I get it, sh

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Don W

18526 posts in 2407 days


#7 posted 02-05-2017 06:09 PM

That’s a type4 frog.

-- http://timetestedtools.net - Collecting is an investment in the past, and the future.

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HorizontalMike

7664 posts in 2754 days


#8 posted 02-05-2017 06:39 PM

Skip,
Here are a few images of my #5418. I have not gotten around to refurb it yet, so it is still in the rust state.

BTW, I have found that only my smaller 5400-series planes had round frog posts (2-5408, 1-5409) and my larger all have square frog posts (1-5410, 2-5414, 1-5418). I wonder if that holds true with others out there… Hmm…

-- HorizontalMike -- "Woodpeckers understand..."

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luthierwnc

143 posts in 1616 days


#9 posted 02-05-2017 07:51 PM

Don; oh, well. I’d thought the Type 4’s were the VBM’s with a smooth surface. I have two of those and neither have the stippled-detail in the recesses.

Mike; looks like yours has a date with the electrolysis tank. It can be hard to orient the parts so all of the surfaces get the line-of-sight exposure to the scrap iron. On the one in the mail; it looks like enough of the Japanning is left not to repaint but that’s a game-day decision. With luck, I have enough Brazilian bits to laminate a new tote top. I love the smell of that wood but it is unobtainium in quantity for good reasons.

As long as it fits … sh

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HorizontalMike

7664 posts in 2754 days


#10 posted 02-05-2017 08:50 PM

Yeah, the 418 fits in the 16gal tub. The 422 and 424 are actually too big with my setup… ;-(

-- HorizontalMike -- "Woodpeckers understand..."

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luthierwnc

143 posts in 1616 days


#11 posted 02-05-2017 09:06 PM

Mine is just a plastic tub about 2’ x 16” by maybe 12” high. I wired pieces of rebar in each of the corners with Romex and attached a chunk of channel iron that’s around 16” long by 3” against one of the long sides. Then I just string all of the parts together with baling wire and rearrange them every few hours trying to get a direct line to one of the anodes. A car battery charger supplies the juice and I leave it on the middle setting. Water and washing soda. I made a little basket out of perforated steel for the screws and attach it to the cathode.

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luthierwnc

143 posts in 1616 days


#12 posted 02-09-2017 10:29 PM

The 5418 showed this afternoon. Getting here from Oregon took longer than the replacement frog so everything is ready to go. Overall; I’m pleased. The base is indeed corrugated and dead flat. You can’t expect that—especially on a plane this long—but that saves a lot of work. Japanning; 50% but no rust so I won’t repaint it. All of the little parts are clean too.

This is definitely the thin-cast base. The replacement frog dropped right in. I’d forgotten there is a gap between the edge of the frog and the bed on these Sargents. I checked another one to be sure. The Stanley replacement iron has probably never been used on this plane. As usual, the slot is too narrow to fit the disc at the end of the lateral and it was bolted to the chipbreaker upside down. Strangely, it is well-honed so at some point, somebody knew what they were doing. I’ll order a Hock tonight.

One thing I hadn’t anticipated was that with the tote so close to the frog on these old ones, the tote has to be shorter than even a stock 414 to clear the lateral. I had a piece of Brazilian 1.1” x .42” x 8” that might have made a nice bridge for a small guitar but for a wormhole in the wrong place. I cut that in unequal thirds and laminated them together with just enough to spare for the top quarter of the tote.

Give me a few days to report back. My next woodworking project will be chainsawing a tree that fell on my fence last night. The top-rail has a nice “U” shape now.

Cheers, sh

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luthierwnc

143 posts in 1616 days


#13 posted 02-11-2017 01:54 PM

Got the tote done. The horn is more in the style of the later 409’s but it works and the laminate seams don’t show too much. I’ve had good luck with two coats of shellac followed by two thin coats of Tru Oil. It looks like honest use—neither shiny nor worn-away.

Just waiting on the new blade. sh

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HorizontalMike

7664 posts in 2754 days


#14 posted 02-13-2017 12:23 AM

Here you go, I got around to re-furbing my 5418. This one one was rather beat up and needed much TLC, but it lives… ;-) :

-- HorizontalMike -- "Woodpeckers understand..."

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Don W

18526 posts in 2407 days


#15 posted 02-13-2017 12:24 AM

I’m not sure about the Sargent. The Harley distracted me.

-- http://timetestedtools.net - Collecting is an investment in the past, and the future.

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