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Please help with veneering dinner table

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Forum topic by Dima posted 02-01-2017 01:47 PM 766 views 0 times favorited 36 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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Dima

11 posts in 320 days


02-01-2017 01:47 PM

Hi guys,

I am a DIY guy who works in my garage (after I put kids to sleep)
I am currently building a modern dinner table.

The table is extendable and is made up of two large table top panels, each one measuring 50” wide and about 50” long
I also have an 18” leaf.

The table top panels are made of 3/4 red oak Plywood with 1×3 edge banding.

I have recently bough a RED OAK PAPER BACKED VENEER 5×10 feet. I have cut it to fit the top and sides of my top panels.

I DO NOT HAVE VACCUM BAG OR PRESS EQUIPMENT.

I am confused of what to use to bond the veneer to the top panels.
I initially bought Weldwood GEL contact cement. But have been reading all the horror stories online of its short duration since its rubber, of its low heat resistance and delamination problems.

Joe at veneersupplies.com has many products with great descriptions of each product.
I really like his Heat Lock glue, and it would be easy to do it right at home, but it is not heat resistant and not sure if it is applicable for dining table .
I googled heat resistant contact cements and came up with 3M SCOTCH WELD 1357. but not sure

I just wanted to ask you guys: WHAT WOULD YOU USE TO VENEER A DINNER TABLE of ABOVE DIMENSIONS?
I am assuming you guys would want it to be somewhat heat resistant…
and since I don’t have vacuum bag setup, what would be my best option to do it at home?

P.S. I was planning to only veneer the top of my table…since the plywood by itself has a red oak.

Thank you.

Dmitry


36 replies so far

View Aj2's profile

Aj2

1179 posts in 1638 days


#1 posted 02-01-2017 02:41 PM

Isn’t the plywood already veneered with red oak?If so then you are adding a second layer.
I think the problem your going to have is the plywood cupping soon after you add to one side.
I do realize your question is about glue but I think it’s the least of your problems.
Good luck.

Aj

-- Aj

View shipwright's profile

shipwright

7783 posts in 2638 days


#2 posted 02-01-2017 03:21 PM

First of all if I were veneering the top of a dining room table I would use the thickest veneer I could find and certainly not the ultra-thin paper backed stuff.
As for glueing without any form of clamping, the best method is hammer veneering with hot hide glue.
The best glues for veneering are hard drying glues that won’t “creep”. That pretty much means UF glues or hide glues but my best advice is to get some real veneer. .... really.

-- Paul M ..............If God wanted us to have fiberglass boats he would have given us fibreglass trees. http://thecanadianschooloffrenchmarquetry.com/

View Dima's profile

Dima

11 posts in 320 days


#3 posted 02-01-2017 03:47 PM

I ordered my veneer from oakwood. Prior to ordering, I called them and asked for recommendations gor a dining table. This is what the guys recommended…spent $250 for it…

1. Isnt a plywood a good substrate for a veneer?

2. What is a “real veneer”?

3. Hide glue comes apart if heat is applied.
Would not work for my purposes.

Thank you

View HerbC's profile

HerbC

1688 posts in 2699 days


#4 posted 02-01-2017 04:28 PM

Dima,

Shipwright is giving you good advise. Paul knows what he’s talking about in this area more than 99.999% of the users here at LJ.

The seller may have made their recommendations based on what they had available to sell, rather that what is actually best for your project.

Hot hide glue has been used to veneer tables for hundreds of years. You wouldn’t expect the table to be directly exposed to hot dishes since most people would use trivets to protect the surface from truly hot dishes.

The standard veneering technique when using plywood or other sheet goods as subtrates is to apply veneer to both surfaces to minimize warpage due to unequal movement. Typically the back side is coated with an less expensive veneer than the show surfaces.

Good luck with your project.

Be Careful!

Herb

-- Herb, Florida - Here's why I close most messages with "Be Careful!" http://lumberjocks.com/HerbC/blog/17090

View Rich's profile

Rich

1987 posts in 429 days


#5 posted 02-01-2017 04:41 PM

Someone can correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think it’s a good idea to veneer only the top of the table. Yes, the plywood has veneer, but you’re changing the balance of the board and I believe you will risk having it warp on you, as Aj pointed out. Yes, the veneer on the underside might be oak, but it won’t behave differently than any other piece of plywood.

I’d also be less concerned about heat. You really shouldn’t place things like casserole dishes right out of the oven on any table, even if it’s solid wood. You need to use trivets for that. I assume you also use placemats, so they will protect it from heated dinner plates as well.

-- No matter how much you push the envelope, it'll still be stationery.

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shipwright

7783 posts in 2638 days


#6 posted 02-01-2017 05:11 PM

Heat alone will not damage hide glue, at least not until it gets very hot. Unless you are planning to place a frying pan right off the stove on your table I wouldn’t worry. Heat and moisture together will reverse hide glue but that’s not a bad thing, it’s a good thing.
By “real veneer” I meant not paper backed veneer. The actual wood on that stuff is generally much thinner than even thin commercially sliced raw veneer.

-- Paul M ..............If God wanted us to have fiberglass boats he would have given us fibreglass trees. http://thecanadianschooloffrenchmarquetry.com/

View Dima's profile

Dima

11 posts in 320 days


#7 posted 02-01-2017 08:31 PM

I really appreciate everyone’s expert advice.

I wish I have asked you guys prior to spending all this money on the veneer.

Since I am now stuck with this paperback red oak veneer. I guess I have no choice but just to use it. Otherwise it would be wasted $250. and I have no other use for it. Also, now I guess I will need to buy more paper back veneer for the underside of the table top.
My whole reason of not building the top out of solid lumber was that I read that solid lumber table tops are very prone to warping. Now, using 3/4 thick plywood I am facing the similar problem :o)

I will post some photos of my project so far, and will welcome any suggestions of how to improve it or any other additional stuff I should watch out for. BTW the edging wood is solid red oak. I just glued it with Titebond II and clamps.
The base is solid red oak. I plan to stain this table dark espresso and finish it with oil based polyurethane.

Thank you again for all your advice.

View Rich's profile

Rich

1987 posts in 429 days


#8 posted 02-01-2017 08:48 PM



Also, now I guess I will need to buy more paper back veneer for the underside of the table top.

They sell backer veneers which are intended for that purpose and less expensive than the premium stuff.

-- No matter how much you push the envelope, it'll still be stationery.

View Aj2's profile

Aj2

1179 posts in 1638 days


#9 posted 02-01-2017 09:02 PM

I see what you did there very cleaver.The veneer also has a good character to it.
Nice work.

Aj

-- Aj

View Rick_M's profile

Rick_M

10645 posts in 2220 days


#10 posted 02-02-2017 01:39 AM

Red oak veneer on red oak plywood is a waste of time and effort. Put the red oak on the bottom and something better on top, white oak at least.

-- http://thewoodknack.blogspot.com/

View Dima's profile

Dima

11 posts in 320 days


#11 posted 02-02-2017 02:26 AM

Rick M,

I plan on staining the table dark espresso.
what is wrong with having red oak on top?

The base of the table, the pedestal base is made out of solid red oak, shouldn’t I match the wood?

Is white oak superior to red?

View Dima's profile

Dima

11 posts in 320 days


#12 posted 02-02-2017 03:10 PM

View Rich's profile

Rich

1987 posts in 429 days


#13 posted 02-02-2017 03:18 PM

Don’t confuse finishing both sides with veneering both sides. Perhaps that wasn’t your intent, but just making sure.

http://www.joewoodworker.com/veneering/backer-veneer.htm

-- No matter how much you push the envelope, it'll still be stationery.

View rwe2156's profile

rwe2156

2716 posts in 1321 days


#14 posted 02-02-2017 04:22 PM

No expert on veneer but I recently finished a project which I experimented gluing 4 different ways:

1. Cold press veneer glue.
2. TB hide glue (what a mess & yes, you need to warm it up!)
3. PVA glue + iron heat.
4. OBG glue + hammer veneer.

My conclusion was in the future I will use hot hide glue although I have to say the glue/hot iron technique worked extremely well. This won’t be applicable for a large sheet of veneer, tho.

Thinking about the issues involved in clamping & unless you want to get a vacuum bag, personally, I would go with hot hide glue. If you’ve never done it, its no big deal. I would keep it simple: Old Brown Glue and any thermostat controlled cooker or crockpot can be adapted so long as you make sure you have a thermometer at all times. Do some test pieces first to get your feet wet.

If you go the HHG route, I would cut the veneer in 8-10” strips and apply one at a time (you may even decide to do a pattern or border).

The reason you’re getting comments about the oak ply is that any quality ply will + you’re covering oak veneer with oak veneer (?).

The commercially available veneer is too thin for a top IMO it needs to be at least 1/16 – 3/32 and that is not real easy to find. Fior this reason lots of guys resaw their own veneer.

BTW, I’ve seen people use contact cement with paper backed veneer. I don’t know what it looks like 10 years down the road, tho.


My whole reason of not building the top out of solid lumber was that I read that solid lumber table tops are very prone to warping. Now, using 3/4 thick plywood I am facing the similar problem :o)
- Dima
I would never be afraid to use solid lumber so long as it is dry & acclimated. Very important to secure the top using methods to allow for movement. Breadboard ends can also help.

Matter of fact, my next project is a dining trestle table. It will be of quarter sawn white oak with a solid top.

You’ll do fine. Be sure to post some pics when you’re done.

-- Everything is a prototype thats why its one of a kind!!

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Dima

11 posts in 320 days


#15 posted 02-02-2017 06:27 PM

rwe2156,

it seems like most of the pros here prefer hide glue. I understand why.
I have never used it before and am scared to screw up my table…I am still considering it.

How come you would not use PVA + hot iron to glue a large veneer sheet, like 50”x50” in my case (one for each top panel)?

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