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toothed blade for hand plane

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Forum topic by richgreer posted 09-07-2010 05:48 PM 6578 views 0 times favorited 8 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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richgreer

4541 posts in 2538 days


09-07-2010 05:48 PM

I hope you’ll forgive me for all my questions about hand planes.

I’ve done a lot of research on hand planes. I know the purpose of a toothed blade. I think it would only be needed in limited situations but in some situations it would be an ideal solution.

My question – - How do you sharpen it more than a few times without losing the teeth?

-- Rich, Cedar Rapids, IA - I'm a woodworker. I don't create beauty, I reveal it.


8 replies so far

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swirt

2117 posts in 2435 days


#1 posted 09-07-2010 06:15 PM

Good question.
It also depends on the specific tool. Blades that are toothed on the back (as most are) should last longer than those toothed on the bevel.

I think if you are just “honing” as opposed to grinding, the serrations will last a good long time. If you are using it a LOT I think at some point you may need to touch them up a bit with a saw file or maybe just a feathered slip stone. But a toothed blade is kind a specialty blade so I think you would not use it to remove large quantities of wood. Also due to its function being razor sharp is not as critical as if it were a smoothing blade where you might hone it more often.

Sharpen it on the pull stroke only as it may be more likely to gouge your stone if you push it.

Some other references (but none address the degree to which the teeth are preserved over time)
http://www.lie-nielsen.com/faq.php#11

http://blog.woodworking-magazine.com/blog/New+Toothing+Plane+Familiar+Maker.aspx

http://www.fullchisel.com/blog/?p=31

Also a nice utube video about using the blade

-- Galootish log blog, http://www.timberframe-tools.com

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rwyoung

388 posts in 2935 days


#2 posted 09-07-2010 10:53 PM

Sharpen from the bevel side. Just a quick hone/strop to remove the wire edge on the back side.

If the blade is seriously out of flat, it may not be useable. But since a toothed blade is not designed to leave a smooth surface but rather a rough one, if it is a little wonky, no big deal.

Individually, each tooth acts like a tiny little blade all on its own. A well formed bevel plus removing the wire edge lets each tooth plane independently.

A neat trick.

-- Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things.

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lwllms

555 posts in 2745 days


#3 posted 09-08-2010 12:28 AM

Traditional toothing irons are made like files and not like the modern versions with milled grooves. I haven’t used the modern irons so can’t say how they work.

The teeth of the old ones are like tiny skewed blades that do limit tear out and leave a pattern in the wood that’s removed by trying or smooth planes. These irons are sharpened only on the bevel.

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swirt

2117 posts in 2435 days


#4 posted 09-08-2010 05:37 AM

lwillms Just saw the most recent nod to your work in the Popular Woodworking that arrived today. (I think it was a recommendation for a beading plane). Congratulations.

As long as we are on the subject of toothing blades. If you had a non-toothed blade either for a Stanley Bench plane or a wooden plane and wanted to convert it to a toothing blade, is there a recommended process?

-- Galootish log blog, http://www.timberframe-tools.com

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rwyoung

388 posts in 2935 days


#5 posted 09-08-2010 05:11 PM

I wouldn’t try converting an already hardened blade to a toothed pattern without first removing the temper in the steel. Anneal it to make it soft again. Cut the teeth then reharden. On the one hand it will make it easier to cut the grooves (they were punched on the “antiques”, similar to the way teeth are raised on hand-stitched rasps and files). Or you can try filing them in or if you have access to a vertical mill, they could be cut in with a V mill.

On the other hand, it may be a good way to warp the blade during the anneling, rework then re-tempering steps.

They could be cut into hardened steel with a V mill but it will be slow going and pretty tough on the tooling.

To be quite honest, even though I LIKE playing with such things and would do it 24/7 if I had the time, I’d seriously consider contacting somebody like Ron Hock and getting a blade made. Or see if one of the already available toothed blades from various sources can fit your plane.

Ultimately, do whatever Larry tells you. He seems to have a pretty good handle on this plane making business for some reason… ;)

-- Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things.

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lwllms

555 posts in 2745 days


#6 posted 09-08-2010 08:02 PM

As far as I can tell, the cutting geometry is all wrong in a common pitch plane for a toothing iron. Old ones were pitched around 70º to 90º. A thin iron like those in Stanley planes isn’t going to work well for a toothing iron. To try to make one, you’d want to start with a pre-1910 Stanley iron because the later irons were laminated. We’ve experimented with several designs file cutting chisels we made, trying to produce toothing irons. We did get a few workable irons but nothing we’re willing to put the company name on. The best ones we made were of 1070 steel and we bumped the carbon content with case hardening. We won’t do that again, case hardening compounds generate cyanide gas and we’d rather not deal with that in the shop. Not only can it very easily kill you, it also quickly erodes the ceramic insulation in a heat treating furnace.

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swirt

2117 posts in 2435 days


#7 posted 09-09-2010 06:11 AM

Thanks for the info lwllms. Interesting stuff. When you mentioned that the geometry was wrong on a common plane. Do you think a backbevel on the iron would correct the problem by getting it to a higher angle?

I did find reference on some luthier forums for making toothed blades

“Toothed plane blades may be made by grinding or milling very small grooves in them spaced 1mm apart. Use a very thin abrasive disc, or carbide dental burs.” from here

“I took my Dremel tool and a cutting wheel, and in about 30 seconds notched the blade of my Record block plane. It does the job on ribstock perfectly, and I’m not sure I could imagine a commercially-notched blade doing it any better.” from here

as well as some semi-related micro-toothing info here.

Sorry Rich for hijacking your thread.

-- Galootish log blog, http://www.timberframe-tools.com

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swirt

2117 posts in 2435 days


#8 posted 09-09-2010 06:42 AM

Also found this little bit regarding sharpening toothed irons on Dieter Schmid selling an ECE toothed plane here

“Sharpen the bevel as you do it with every other plane blade. Then strike the blade with a wooden mallet into a hardwood block. The burr will be removed. “

-- Galootish log blog, http://www.timberframe-tools.com

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