What Price to Sell it For?

Pricing seems like the difference between artisan and craftsman. A mission style table I would price time and material. A reinterpetation of the style and added design time could justify A three ZERO price increase. I might add my attempts at art furniture (very nice pieces) sat in the furniture galleries for years unsold no matter how i priced them. Market seems very importain.

-- http://www.woodsongsfurniture.com

Was talking to a friend of mine today about just this. Someone told him to simply figure out how long a project was going to take you, and multiply that by 4x your hourly rate. This will cover materials, overhead, as well as any extra time that may work its way into the project (especally all those hours outside the shop you spend designing or problem solving in your head!).

I had a graphics professor in college suggest essentially the same thing. (she also suggested starting with a base price – essentially your “creative fee”, then 4x your rate)

-- I am always doing what I cannot do yet, in order to learn how to do it. - Pablo Picasso -- http://snbcreative.wordpress.com/

I have often considered picking up a copy of “The Woodworker’s Guide to Pricing Your Work” since I really have no idea what to price anything I do at. Seems like it might be a good starting point at least.

Unfortunately, this book constantly gets bumped down the list of things to buy. There always seem to be other things higher up the list like more lumber, tools, supplies and clothes for the kids!!!

I don’t have any advice other than making sure your stuff has several “zeros” in front of the decimal!

-- ~ www.darrylmasterson.com ~ www.woodworkingdungeon.blogspot.com ~

Pricing is a constant issue. For those people who are aware of the time devoted to completing project the price is too low, for potential buyers who are not interested in the journey (that is the time devoted to completing the project) the price is too high.

I also struggle with the definition of “artisan and craftsman”. I also have a problem with the definition of a Cook and a Chef. Each produce the same product, work with the same ingredients and essential the same tools.

Is it volume of the work produced, originality of the work, quality, or the price that people use to categorise us as either a artisan or craftsman?

Tony Ward – www.tonyward.org

-- Bandsaw Box Plans

Tony

While I am not at the present a professional woodworker I have in the past sold items that I have made – I am reminded of the collector’s adage that something is worth exactly what someone else is willing to pay for it.

As for the Chef vs Cook dilemma – the Wikipedia www.wikipedia.com defines Chef and Cook in the context of a restaurant kitchen as follows:

Chef is a term commonly used to refer to an individual who cooks professionally. Within a restaurant however, chef (French for chief or head) is often only used to refer to one person: the one in charge of everyone else in the kitchen. This is usually the executive chef. The executive chef is in charge of everything related to the kitchen, including menu creation, personnel management and business aspects.

The term cook within a restaurant kitchen usually refers to person with little to no creative influence on a menu and little to no command over others within the kitchen.

No real inspiration here and slightly off topic but good fodder for discussion.

Cheers
Mike

-- Mike, Maryland, www.thewoodenquill.com

I added something in the following topic that is related to this as well.

I do not know if it helps, but I hope so.

-- Bill, Turlock California, http://www.brookswoodworks.com

It all depends, Mark. For cabinets I take the cost of the material and 10x it. On the magazine table I’m making right now, I just ballpark it and came up with Oak $175.00 and Cherry $225.00. On the Heirloom Rocker I’ll be starting on in the near future I figure if I could make $750 – $1,000.00 per week ( or a minimum of $2,500.00) and the cost of the wood, that would probably make it worth my while, even though it would be about $1000.00 cheaper than everybody else. It all depends on what your market can handle. I was told recently by a couple of fellow Jocksters not to give my work away, but til I get established, I have to eat.

And in the case of the DVD cabinet I made and sold for $400.00, that was based on the item that my friend saw for $300, plus tax and shipping.

-- http://ye-olde-cabinet-shoppe.com/

My .02 cents worth says to get as much as the market bears. After 30 plus years of doing this as a living, it’s still a matter of watching the expression on the client’s face. If they are comparative shopping, there may be other factors that will influence them paying a higher price.
I’ve tried the cost plus theory on some items and for kitchen cabinets, or vanity cabinets, the format must be fairly straightforward to use that method. Cost plus doesn’t account for an intricate layout differential, that has to be figured separately. But on the whole, since I used to bid many jobs and knew it was just for them to get a bid, I had a system.
For whatever the materials were to be, I used a per/ft price for upper cabs, per/ft price for full or partial splash, per/ft price for the type of material for the countertop, per/ft price for base cabinets, price each for drawers. Then figured demolition and disposal costs for the tearout of the existing kitchen, delivery charges, installation charges, and any costs added to the job that included any specialties. I found that the per/ft pricing covered the costs over just wall length prices. There are some areas that don’t get base cabinets even though there is an upper cabinet on that wall, like an opening for a dishwasher.
Sorry to get so verbose about pricing, but kitchen cabinets are one of the one most bids done that have a multitude of differentials. For entertainment units, bars, commercial work like jewelry stores, figuring the cost will entail estimating how much time the project will take, materials cost, overhead, and don’t forget profit.
For artistic or one-of-a-kind projects, time out of your life went into crafting a very personalized thing that may be difficult to put a price on. For what it’s actual value may be compared to the craftsmanship involved there’s no set price. Consider yourself a craftsman/artisan, no matter what your skill level may be. Anything you make; sign, carve, or whatever method you can, put, engrave, burn, or scratch your name and date on it somewhere.

I am trying to avoid cabinet work, since there are so many people in that trade and all have more experience than I do. I may do some in the future, but not at the moment.

Instead, I am trying to focus on free standing items. Some may be one time, some can be repeats.

Funny thing is, even when I estimate the costs and such, I do not make as much as I estimate. Right now, everything seems to take twice as long to make as I estimate. If I added that additional labor rate in, no one would buy my products. I am sure this will get better as I get more skilled and more experienced. All I can say is I do have a formula to produce the estimate and it does work.

-- Bill, Turlock California, http://www.brookswoodworks.com

I personally think that you can take the hourly rate of a localk mechanic or plumber which kiks usally 50-70 dollars an hour, and make that your shop rate. Then when you make a piece you price the first one at hours, materials and your mark up. Your location has alot to do with what you can charge. I think you’lkl get more in New York City than you would in Wyoming. But there are people every where that are willing to pay top dollar for hand made creations.

But at the same time you have to look at the going market rate in your area. But I think there are very few piece of hand crafted furniture that should be sold for under 1000.00 dollars.

-- Kaleo , http://www.kaleosworkshop.com

Either I have to work much faster, or the world needs to wake up. I can’t sell anything for $50-$70 an hour, not even close, not even half of that. Even the folks that were from all over the country at the Western Design Conference told me that they can’t make that kind of money on one-off, original works.

I made $60/hour doing drywall work, but I don’t want to do it for a living, or in fact, ever again. I know a plumber that retired at 50 to the country, in fact he makes a good customer of mine now. This craft just doesn’t have the following of people to make what plumbers are able to charge for getting us water, and getting rid of our waste.

The cost of furnishings for most buyers is set by the cost of factory made, imported goods, and antique stores. There is a 0.009 % shopping niche out there that wants hand-made pieces of woodworking, and all of us are vying for the same shoppers.

I didn’t have much trouble getting minimum wage for my work, then I went to $10 an hour, then $15 an hour, and then $20 an hour. I started running into resistance at that level with being able to sell my work, eventhough my speed has increased exponentially, and my investment in tools has gone way up also. It could be my work is the problem, it could be my local area, or it could be that I work to slow. Or, it could be that, ” we just don’t get no respect,” to quote Rodney Dangerfield.

Keep the suggestions coming, I have enjoyed seeing the perspectives, and getting the feedback. I watched a show on Andy Warhol a few months back. He could take a photograph, do a bad rendering of it in a silk screen, and then make a fortune selling copies of it in ugly colors. I don’t get it, but people didn’t care a bit what his hourly rate was. I couldn’t handle all of the publicity and parties either though.

Mark

-- Mark DeCou - Kansas Flint Hill's Artisan

We are truly Artists and our art usually goes unappreciated til we die. My son explained it like this: “We’re consumers, Pops, that’s what we do.” What he meant to say is that they are content with buying cheap crap, and have no real appreciation for the labor of love that we woodworkers live for. So guess what? My children can go ahead and buy their cheap particleboard crap, while I surround myself with beautiful hardwood furniture. The stuff that I complained about settling on is better than anything they have in their homes.

And when my time comes to leave this world, I’m going to will it to my customers. Donate the shop to the local up-and-coming woodworker… or maybe start Ye Olde Cabinet School for struggling artists.

-- http://ye-olde-cabinet-shoppe.com/

Ok Michael – put me on your donation list for the shop…..just kidding.

I think it would be great to have a woodworking school in our area. Most seem to be located on the East Coast or Midwest. The few out here are in the larger cities like Seattle, Portland, San Francisco or Los Angeles.

I think if we had a “school” in this area it would do very well. I have read how some other areas have established these schools for teaching skills. As another line of business, they also support the local woodworkers by giving them access to tools and such they would not normally have (e.g. – 24” planner, raised panel machines, etc.). As a side benefit, both the woodworkers and school get good PR and create an outlet for selling their goods.

While we might not get the same rate as plumbers and electricians, we should move above minimum wage rate.

-- Bill, Turlock California, http://www.brookswoodworks.com

Quote Obi: ”And when my time comes to leave this world, I’m going to will it to my customers. Donate the shop to the local up-and-coming woodworker… or maybe start Ye Olde Cabinet School for struggling artists.”

Obi, my greatest fear is that when I die, my wife will sell my tools for what I told her I paid for them. LOL

-- CanuckDon "I just love small wooden boxes!" http://www.canterburybaptist.org/

Personally Mark I think that there are more than .009 % out there. And to be honest there is now way that people like us can compete with factory made stuff from Asia. So why even try, we do something much better than that.

I still believe that if you are going to run a professional shop then you need to account for everything. Overhead, tools , materials, travel, insurances, internet, phones, computers…everything. When you add all that up there is no way you can make all that happen for 20-25 dollars and hour. Because on top of all that stuff you need to build in some profit. I ran a small refinishing shop before I decided to go back to school and make instead of fix. But even then with all my cost tallied up, I charged 55 dollars an hour for work.

I know that alot of makers that can get that kind of money have a name out there already. But look at the big dogs like Sam Maloof. He gets something like 15,000-20,000 for his chairs. He can pump those things out in a week.

I think we sell ourselves short sometimes, there are people out there that are willing to pay for handmade furniture. Finding those people is the problem. But I guarentee they are out there. The problem is that we ourselves most of the time need to sell the piece so bad, to put food on the table that we under cut ourselves.

I recently made a mirror, that took me 20 hours to complete. It was an original design and the first one I had ever made. Now I can do it in half the time. But the first one sold for 900.00 Australian dollars. That’s 45 dollars an hour. But the next one that I make will be faster and most likely cost the same if not more.

So price it fair but for what you want. And if you can wait it out. The buyers are there. Just my .02 cents, and then again I am a student, maybe I still have lofty dreams.

-- Kaleo , http://www.kaleosworkshop.com

Don, that’s very funny. Make sure before you go that you tell her all of those prices were American. Of course, with the current exchange rates….

-- David, Central Ohio

Woodwork magazine Issue 102 Dec ’06 had a great article on this very subject recently.
http://www.woodwork-mag.com/index.html

If you can’t track it down let me know and I’ll see if I can find a way to scan the copy I have and send it to you.

I have some thoughts on this particular topic. Let me first say I am humbled in this group of woodworkers – that being said…I was a Consulting Forester for many years – a very specific target audience. The only product I had to sell was my skill, time and reputation. When I first started, I wanted to keep my prices ~fairly low~, but my mentor and business partner gave me the best advice I’ve ever received ”...it’s easy to drop your price…but raising it…not so easy…” He advised me to double my initial rate, which I did and I prepared for a hungry winter. We worked all over the northwest and it never did slow down, (but I still always worried when I didn’t have two or four project in front of me). When I talked with my partners about this later, they pointed out that if you need a Lawyer and you see two advertisements, one at $65/hr and one at $135/hour, based on the information you have which is the better Lawyer? – I bet that you, like me, said the one for $165/hr. Specialized work doesn’t fit into the standard business model.

I too had many people who would balk at my rates, but with encouragement from my partners (very important!), I soon learned that …you really don’t want to work for people like that anyhow, (we called them F’in Farmers – you could quote any price and they would bitch!)

We found that exposure and word of mouth was the best sales representation we could have. I have found, (as most here are already aware) this also translates into woodworking. While not a professional, I have made many pieces that I have given to friends & various businesses prograta. And, I sometimes receive requests to do custom work, but that’s not why I go to the shop, so when someone asks for a quote, I give some astronomical amount to shy them off. To my surprise, many come back ready to place an order. I don’t want to sound like I’m driving people away. I certainly haven’t had enough inquiries that I could make a living at woodworking, but I am seeing similarities with my consulting days.

For instance, the work of Mark DeCou is easily comparable to what I see in any high end furniture catalogs. So, to address the initial question of “what information do you other jocks use to figure up the costs of doing a project”, I would suggest using high-end competitors (Thos. Moser & others), as one source for pricing. If you use estimated hours (time & material) and compare to high end market and weigh those against the “wants” of how bad you want to do the project, you will come up with a good price, someplace you can comfortably weigh if you want to move your price down. If your clients are beating you up – know that they are not someone you want as clients. I say that having been in that position before and knowing that it’s not an easy place to be. It’s always feast or famine.

I have nothing but respect and admiration (and envy) for woodworkers who make their living at their passion, and I certainly don’t mean to sound contrite. For my two-cents, exposure, exposure, exposure, much of the work I see on Lumberjocks should be selling at high end, and if it’s not, you haven’t made the clients aware yet.

-- The Gnarly Wood Shoppe

I hope to have that problem one day of having too much work to do. Then I can pick and choose the items I do want to make. But, Schroeder does make a good point. If we under price our items, does that give a feeling of lower quality to our work. I am planning on keeping this in mind as I create my next few quotes and see what results.

-- Bill, Turlock California, http://www.brookswoodworks.com

Mark,

First of all you’re work is extraordinary, the furniture, the scrimshaw, the knives. You should be getting paid big $ for it. One thing you might try is to break up your website into individual websites with focus on just that aspect. A buyer for a high end piece of furniture won’t often be interested in kinives or walking sticks, and may even in some cases look upon your furniture in a less serious light because of it.

You’re knives, scrimshaw and walking sticks could be grouped together. Walking sticks nowhere near as nice as yours are sold at a local renaissance fair for $50-$70 ea. I’ve seen scrimshaw not as nice as yours on Cape Cod and Maui selling for $1000’s

It’s all about the marketing…try creating a website with a very high end sophisticated look and focus your most beautiful and well made pieces of furniture there. Create original designs. The Morris chairs you built are beautifully done but they are look just like many others. You need to differentiate yourself from the pack. Maloof, Nakashima, Boggs, and others have established a niche that sells their work. From what I can see your works compare favorably to those. You just need to find the niche and the market. Look into high end galleries in chic neighborhoods. If you become known to those with money you will be able to get what your work is worth.

-- Bob, Carver Massachusetts, Sawdust Maker http://www.capecodbaychallenge.org

I like that idea of separate sites. If I was looking for $$ furniture that is what I’d want to see in the gallery. Good idea

-- "Functional WoodArt" by Debbie, Canada (http://www.execulink.com/~yohan)

Yes, Mark could have several sites, one for each line he makes – chairs, canes, etc. It could be a good thing.

-- Bill, Turlock California, http://www.brookswoodworks.com

These are all good ideas from you folks, thanks for taking time to share your thoughts.

I started to write up my answers and thoughts and appreciation here, and it got so long, I decided to BLOG it tonight.

-- Mark DeCou - Kansas Flint Hill's Artisan

This is a great subject. My method has been price my materials at a few suppliers Lowes and other wood suppliers. Then I get them from a friend who runs a moulding shop and builds arch ways and such for contractors. He has several contacts and allways beats the other suppliers cost. So I get my wood from him at a discounted price. Then I use the prices from the others and times it from 3 to 5 times more for most jobs. So it works out to 3 to 5 times the cost of materials. So far I seem to be making pretty good wages on the jobs I do.

I just recently started selling boats for a friend that owns a marina 3 days a week. I have been so busy I havnt been on here much. I sell boats sat ,sun and monday and working with wood the rest of the time. I have been looking to buy a new table saw and jointer and other tools to make things easier in my shop.

-- JohnShackleford,North Carolina

That is an interesting method JS. It builds in a margin on the materials as well. Makes up for some of those mis-cuts, etc. I just use a 30% waste factor, to account for the mis-cuts, mis-measures, forgotten pieces, etc. However, my estimates are based on the cost of wood at the local distributor instead of the box stores. A big difference in prices.

Since Mark has been at this awhile, he probably has a good idea of how much materials it will take. The hardest part I am having is how to account for my time. I have tracked my work time on a few items, and am amazed at how long it actually takes me. If I added in even a moderate hourly rate, my prices would be too expensive. So, now I am working on methods of improving my speed as well as my quality. Sometimes this is a new method of doing something, and sometimes it is a new piece of equipment.

Either way, I am learning I still have much to learn about this business. That is why I love to hear from Mark and others on how they are doing it. It helps me make my business better as well.

-- Bill, Turlock California, http://www.brookswoodworks.com

Bill: what I am finding is that the “signature” is more important than the formulas for figuring up a cost.

Price vs. Cost are two different topics.

Price has to do with supply vs. demand, and the perceived value, perceived future value, and how much people want what you are able to make in the hours that you work.

Do anything you can to improve the value of the “signature” on the bottom, and the pricing goes up. Win shows, be in newspapers, profile on the internet, etc., all increases the investment potential for those buying your work.

One of my main customers told me three or four years ago that if I started hiring “help” and didn’t do the work myself anymore, then he was done buying my work. I understood that point.

I’m not a good manager anyway, so not hiring employees is ok with me. I have a hard time managing myself. I do think that having someone around that would listen to me might be good though. My wife gets tired of listening to me after I’ve been couped up by myself for a long day.

keep the ideas coming, I’m working up my thoughts for a long-blog on this subject, and the input has been very valuable.

-- Mark DeCou - Kansas Flint Hill's Artisan

Well Mark, you can always talk to us. We love to listen to your thoughts and ideas.

I do not have plans to hire any help myself either. I did not get into this to supervise others, although it might help the quality of my work sometimes. I wanted to do this to actually build something.

I agree, the “signature” is what people will want to buy. It is nice to know that you have a name brand that others want. It is great to have someone that says they buy from you because you do the work, not that your company does.

I am looking forward to that upcoming blog.

-- Bill, Turlock California, http://www.brookswoodworks.com

Mark…it would be a shame if at some point you didn’t hire an apprentice at least. You would have someone that could do the grunt work…freeing you up for the skilled work and for marketing and at the same time pass on your knowledge and craft. As for having clients leave you…there are lots of art works out there with the masters name on them when 90% of the work was done by an apprentice. You have to educate your clients that the quality will not suffer and about the value of continuing your craft.

Oh…and all great artists have apprentices…...Boggs and Maloof do…and even though George Nakashima has passed his work and company continue.

-- Bob, Carver Massachusetts, Sawdust Maker http://www.capecodbaychallenge.org

I think that would be a wonderful idea Bob. Mark could hire someone to do the basics, like rough cutting the wood, some planing or sanding, things like that. Then he could focus on the part that makes his creations come alive. And the apprentice could get a great start in learning how to make great masterpieces too.

Of course, in our society there is the downside of that. The taxes, the insurance, the rules and regulations. If you are a one person shop, many of those things do not apply. Hire some help, and the problems multiply exponentially. Besides, Mark may find doing the work therapeutic and fun as well as necessary.

-- Bill, Turlock California, http://www.brookswoodworks.com

You never hire an apprentice! – They cost you money.

If you want to apprentice somebody and they are serious about learning, then you are the master and he is the student – they should pay you or they will work for no pay, (that gets over the taxes and employers Insurance, sick Pay, holidays…...). If they happen to find some money by their bicycle or car wheel when they are leaving, they are lucky to have FOUND something = or as I have done in the past – I present them with good quality hand tools – They get a good start with their own tool collection, they do not damage yours any more – and it is tax detectable.

I have had 1 apprentice last year, because he was unemployed for more than a year, the government paid him to come to me and learn. 4 weeks later he left – the work was too difficult for him.

I just had another young guy for 3 weeks to find out if he liked wood working. He went away a very happy person, after I introduced him to the lathe and he could make something for himself, it gave him no end of self-confidence.- I am waiting to hear from at the end of this school year.
Untrained persons in your workshop cost you a lot of time, money and project delays at the start – be wary. I will persevere to find somebody; I can at least pass my knowledge onto them and show them how to make my coffee and an extra pair of hands is always useful.

-- Tony - All things are possible, just some things are more difficult than others! - SKYPE: Heron2005 (http://www.poydatjatuolit.fi)

sounds like you have the plan all worked out!! And a great plan it is.

-- "Functional WoodArt" by Debbie, Canada (http://www.execulink.com/~yohan)