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Anyone using ASTM 2729 4" pipes for DC?

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Forum topic by PurpLev posted 08-30-2010 03:56 PM 3441 views 0 times favorited 55 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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PurpLev

8476 posts in 2372 days


08-30-2010 03:56 PM

Topic tags/keywords: blast gate astm 2729 permanent dust collection dc duct pipe 4

So I’m revamping my garage, and decided to use the opportunity and finally setup a permanent duct for DC.

I have been trying to get a hold of 4” ASTM 2729 (thin walled) pipes for a LONG time, but nobody seems to be carrying this except for some (1-2) online retailers that with shipping, and quantities just didn’t make it worthy (which is why I still haven’t setup anything permanent). Well, I finally was able to trace a local supplier of these pipes. it’s a small hardware store, and they only had 2 10’ pipes (I need 5-6) so I may have to go back there, or go to another branch and clean them out as well :)

My problem is with blast gates. the available 4” blast gates (black ABS plastic and LV metal ones) seem to be compatible with schedule 40 or schedule 35 pipes which are thick walled. since the ASTM2729 is thinned wall – there is a huge gap between the inside diameter of the pipe and the blast gates.

I could adapt the blast gate to the pipe using spacers/fillers but my concern is that this further reduce the air flow in the pipes, create turbulence at the fitting, and create an extra step that debris could catch on to, and clog it up.

another solution would be to build my own blast gates from the actual 4” pipes which would make a ‘perfect’ fit at the cost of time and effort that I would have to put in to build these (10 of them).

I would really like to just buy something that will work out of the box, but not at the expanse of reduced air flow.

So – my question – does anyone uses ASTM 2729 pipes for DC? and if so – how did you rig your blast gates?

-- ㊍ When in doubt - There is no doubt - Go the safer route.


55 replies so far

View sIKE's profile

sIKE

1271 posts in 2477 days


#1 posted 08-30-2010 04:06 PM

Purp,

I am using the thin walled stuff and it works just fine, though I did endup using duct tape on the ends to increase the diameter to match that of the blast gates. That has worked just fine for me.

I did a some reading before I got started and went through the time and expense on static discharge suppression and it works great. Though upon additional experince and more reading is really overkill. I have ran wire though both the inside and wrapped it outdside of the pipe. I do like not getting the bejebbers shocked out of me, so would keep the wire on the outside, but not the inside of the pipe. It causes more clogs and such than anything else.

I read somewhere once, that cardboard tube that carpet comes in is a perfect fit for those gates, if you know a carpet guy….

-- //FC - Round Rock, TX - "Experience is what you get just after you need it"

View dbhost's profile

dbhost

5386 posts in 1955 days


#2 posted 08-30-2010 04:07 PM

View from the open end. Lee Valley is a direct fit.

My LV self cleaning gates were a direct fit. The slip just inside of the pipe. I just added a very thin bead of clear silicone on the outside to keep it all together… No buildup problems whatsoever… Mind you, 4” isn’t Bill Pentz approved, but it is doing the job in my shop for sure.

-- My workshop blog can be found at http://daves-workshop.blogspot.com

View Bob #2's profile

Bob #2

3808 posts in 2745 days


#3 posted 08-30-2010 04:08 PM

I can’t begin to tell you how disappointed you are going to be when you connect 50-60 feet of 4” pipe to your DC.
By the time you factor in even a minimum number of elbows your suction power is going to suffer dramatically.
The small jump from the blast gates to your lines will be the least of your problems.
You really should research this a bit before you invest your time and $ into it.

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

View b2rtch's profile

b2rtch

4351 posts in 1772 days


#4 posted 08-30-2010 04:14 PM

Bob #2, this is why I want to use 5.00” and I have been trying to locate 5.00” PVC pipe in Salt Lake City, so far I was not able to find any.
Something interesting about this: Oneida recommends using 5.0” duct but their cyclones come with 7.00” inlets, why?

-- Bert

View PurpLev's profile

PurpLev

8476 posts in 2372 days


#5 posted 08-30-2010 04:18 PM

Thanks guys,

sIKE – I agree that there is a lot of overkill and overphilosophized content when you start a DC discussion. it boils down to keeping a CFM as high as possible for as long a run as possible. I am not concerned about static elect. at all, and I’ve seen the opposite where a metal wire in the pipe created clogs. I have a small shop, and just need something that will suck. but may run something on the exterior is I do notice shocks… easy to do.

dbhost – thanks for the picture, I have those blast gates in my ‘shopping cart’ since yesterday, but couldn’t pull the trigger to find out they are too loose in the pipes to warrant them useless. are you using ASTM 2729 pipes (since they are white I can only assume you are as the sch35 are green)? were you by any chance able to compare the LV blast gates vs. the rockler/woodcraft/other black ABS blast gates? I’m asking because I have a couple of the ABS gates and they are VERY loose in the pipe – and if the LV are wider that would be better.

As for as 4” not being Bill approved (lol) I agree, but for the time being in a rental property, I need something that is cheap, available, and easily machined.

-- ㊍ When in doubt - There is no doubt - Go the safer route.

View PurpLev's profile

PurpLev

8476 posts in 2372 days


#6 posted 08-30-2010 04:25 PM

Bob – thank you. I agree with you point. I actually did a lot of research over the last 2 years. looking at my blogs, I got my DC exactly 2 years ago – and have not setup anything permanent yet as I was trying to make sure I get the best out of it.

At the moment, I am using flexible hoses which are far from being the best. although I am planning on ~50ft pipes, this will be spread over 2 separate runs, ~20-30 ft max with 1-2 90 bends that are made of 2 45s. far from ideal, but also far from an extravagant expense. the blast gates will probably be the most expensive thing, and I’ll either be able to use them in a future larger setup, or sell them at not a big of a loss.

4” is indeed not ideal, but sometimes we have to do with what we can get. I consider my current location temporary, and do not want to over spend on it. the 4” setup would be able to sell and passed on to the next LJ.

-- ㊍ When in doubt - There is no doubt - Go the safer route.

View Bob #2's profile

Bob #2

3808 posts in 2745 days


#7 posted 08-30-2010 04:26 PM

Bert:
The short answer to your question is that the mains should be larger than the drops.
for example, I have a 2 hp cyclone set up and chose 6” mains with 4” drops to my tools.
Depending on the length of run and the sizes of the blower you could need up to a 7” diameter to keep the air moving and not dropping the dust burden along the inside of your lines.

i.e The shorter the line the less energy (moving air) required to pull your debris. ( sp factor)

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

View b2rtch's profile

b2rtch

4351 posts in 1772 days


#8 posted 08-30-2010 04:32 PM

Oneidqa recommends for their cyclones 5.00” main with 4.00” or less drops according the machines the drop is connected to.They recommend 5.00”, instead of 6.00 or 7.00”, to keep the velocity as high as possible,
4.00” creates too much restriction/pressure drop.
I fully agree with their idea.

-- Bert

View TheWoodNerd's profile

TheWoodNerd

288 posts in 1915 days


#9 posted 08-30-2010 04:36 PM

Don’t be worried about static. sIKE, I’m sorry but you went through a lot of work and expense for no reason. Whatever source you read telling you it makes a difference was dead wrong. First of all, it’s not possible to ground PVC. Second, I don’t think it’s even possible to receive a shock from PVC. It’s just the nature of the material. If you want all the gory details, check out http://www.thewoodnerd.com/articles/dustExplosion.html

-- The Wood Nerd -- http://www.workshopaholic.net

View Bob #2's profile

Bob #2

3808 posts in 2745 days


#10 posted 08-30-2010 04:37 PM

Bert, I am not familiar with their (Oneida) units and I am sure they want the best for their customers so that would probably be the route to go with that purchase.
As you are aware, there are many configurations and the specs can vary.

I have only owned 2 cyclone systems so far and my second one functions well with 6” spiralok lines with 4” drops.

From

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

View Bob #2's profile

Bob #2

3808 posts in 2745 days


#11 posted 08-30-2010 04:44 PM

Sharon, I forgot to mention you can silicone the gap between your gates and the pipe with good success.

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

View PurpLev's profile

PurpLev

8476 posts in 2372 days


#12 posted 08-30-2010 04:44 PM

Eventually when we buy our place, I’ll probably setup a larger DC duct with a cyclone, but for now, I’m making due while trying to keep the expanse to the minimum (while still trying to make it work). the ‘economy 5’’ metal duct’ is still x4 more expensive than the ASTM 2729 I got, so for now I’m good with this.

Bob – Thanks for the input. I was thinking of siliconing every joint to seal it. is that a custom spiral drop you made? or do they come like that at a sharp 90? (curious, as all I’ve seen so far are angled at 45 in the direction of the pull). looking at your setup, I’m glad to see that the 4” blast gates would work well in any future setup I may do.

-- ㊍ When in doubt - There is no doubt - Go the safer route.

View Bob #2's profile

Bob #2

3808 posts in 2745 days


#13 posted 08-30-2010 04:54 PM

I have both styles. The one in the picture is a 90° that I use for the lunch box planer and my jointer.
I open the gate a crack on my next outlet to get some air moving in the 6” main.

Heres’ a pic of the twin 45° pick ups for the table saw.

From new shop

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

View wchips's profile

wchips

314 posts in 1811 days


#14 posted 08-30-2010 08:11 PM

I used 6’’ stove pipe for the main trunk for about30 feet.ducktaped all the seams good where the shorter runs connect to the trunk i used metal saddles that fit the 6’’ with a 4’’ outlet. as for the blast gates i cut linghts of 4’’ pipe about 1’’ long cut upout enough so they will fit inside the 4’’ pipe those are my shims. I also siliconed the joints. Works fine,no problemas at all. i have got shocka from the plastic pipe. If i had todo it over again i would use 6’’ pvc pipe insted of the stove pipe. that is a hassel to tape all the joints. Hope you can get something out of my post. realley do not know how to word some of it The big box home stores carrey 6’’ and 4’’ pvc pipe in this local.

-- wchips

View dbhost's profile

dbhost

5386 posts in 1955 days


#15 posted 08-31-2010 04:46 PM

I don’t know the specifics on my pipe other than it is the thin walled stuff I got from Lowes. The green stuff is MUCH thicker walled. And the blast gates are a good slip fit, like the pipe into an elbow.

Mind you, my longest run of 4” is 22’ including 2 45 degree elbows. I am planning on upgrading to 5” soon, and as you may have discovered, 5” plastic is either non existent, or severely difficult to find, so I am planning on running 5” snap lock pipe, and some 5×5x4 wyes to branch off to my machines. I may have to scrap the plastic pipe entirely and run with 4” snap lock to the machines, that will be determined when I get to that point. Simply put, I want as much performance as I can eke out of that HF DC of mine…

For now, I am upsizing the intake / outlet ports on my Thien separator to 5”, and going with a 5” side inlet on it to eliminate the elbows… The rest of the 5” run is coming down the road…

As far as comparing to other blast gates, sorry, no I haven’t…

-- My workshop blog can be found at http://daves-workshop.blogspot.com

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