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Thien separator/super dust deputy, vent outside.

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Forum topic by KelleyCrafts posted 01-10-2017 08:53 PM 603 views 0 times favorited 18 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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KelleyCrafts

2681 posts in 579 days


01-10-2017 08:53 PM

For those of you who have a 2 stage DC setup, why aren’t you running through your thien or super dust deputy and then the rest outside? Is there still too much dust? Are you just not wanting to knock a hole in your shop to run a dryer vent? Replacement air coming in that would ruin you climate control?

Was thinking about building a thien and then venting the rest outside. I do live in a normal neighborhood but no HOA present so I have some freedoms there.

Thoughts from experienced people would be great.

-- http://kelleycrafts.com/ - pen blanks - knife scales - turning tools


18 replies so far

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bobasaurus

3355 posts in 3024 days


#1 posted 01-10-2017 08:55 PM

So instead of a bag on the dust collector you would run it outside? Sounds useful. Maybe a problem for insulation during cold/hot days?

-- Allen, Colorado (Instagram @bobasaurus_woodworking)

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KelleyCrafts

2681 posts in 579 days


#2 posted 01-10-2017 09:01 PM

I’m not worried about the climate control myself but would definitely see that as a problem in snowy areas. It was 70 degrees yesterday when I was working in my garage/shop. 70 was the high but still plenty warm enough I worked with the garage door open. During my summer months I run a swamp cooler with success and I usually have it pointed at me and still have the garage door cracked with the side door open while it’s on for air flow. So climate isn’t an issue in my scenario but could see it for others. Like in Colorado Allen.

-- http://kelleycrafts.com/ - pen blanks - knife scales - turning tools

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Manitario

2566 posts in 2723 days


#3 posted 01-10-2017 09:09 PM

It’s -20 here right now so I’m not too keen on having 1000CFM drawn back into my shop…

-- Sometimes the creative process requires foul language. -- Charles Neil

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KelleyCrafts

2681 posts in 579 days


#4 posted 01-10-2017 09:12 PM

Well, like I said, climate issues aside. What about the dust? That’s my main curiosity. Would it be too much to not have the wind handle it in a normal residential area?

-- http://kelleycrafts.com/ - pen blanks - knife scales - turning tools

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brtech

1006 posts in 2763 days


#5 posted 01-10-2017 09:56 PM

Lots of folks out in the woods in moderate climates just run the blower out an elbow to outside. Why bother with the SDD/Thein/bag? It makes a pile of heavy stuff below the exhaust, shovel it up when you want to. No separator and no filter means max airflow, which is good to clear fines (small dust particles). If you insert a separator, CFM goes down. How big is your motor and impeller? If you have 3-5HP on a 15 or 16” impeller, you have enough CFM to use a separator. If you have an HF “2HP”, then you don’t.

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KelleyCrafts

2681 posts in 579 days


#6 posted 01-10-2017 10:03 PM

Brtech,

1. I mentioned several times I’m in a residential area not the woods so I can’t just blow everything outside and shovel it up later.

2. I would argue with you on a separator from a smaller collector. More people on here and the rest of the internet use it with success documented. In fact I would think running through a separator and then straight outside would only help flow to be honest. Either way, it’s been done, documented, and many happy users.

Fwiw, I run a Jet 1100 so it’s a smaller one similar to the HF but the blades are larger by a couple inches.

-- http://kelleycrafts.com/ - pen blanks - knife scales - turning tools

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eflanders

219 posts in 1690 days


#7 posted 01-10-2017 10:19 PM

In a residential area I think the biggest complaints you would get quickly are noise complaints. Also note that the dust that gets missed by the separator is very fine and tends to clump in humid environments. Your house siding is likely to get coated with this stuff near the exhaust port which in some neighborhoods may be an issue due to cosmetic covenants. You are likely to need frequent cleanings of the siding accordingly.

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Shawn Masterson

1322 posts in 1788 days


#8 posted 01-10-2017 10:27 PM

If I lived in an area where I didn’t have to be concerned with climate control I would use a trac vac and have a 10” main line running through the shop. hook it to the shop, fire it up and at the end of the day dump it out back in the woods.

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brtech

1006 posts in 2763 days


#9 posted 01-10-2017 10:33 PM

You can blow anything outside. It does make a visible trace. If you have close neighbors it could be a problem. On the other hand, it gets you more airflow.

“Success” has several dimensions. One is separation efficiency. Thein’s and SDDs effectively remove larger chips from the airstream. The problem is fines. If you have an air quality monitor, and you know that you are clearing fines, then adding separation efficiency is good. Separators, all separators, reduce airflow. If you don’t have 700-1000 CFM at the tool, you aren’t getting the fines. When people report “success”, 99% of them observe the separator working, observe they don’t have to empty their filter as often and claim it’s great. If they measured air quality, it’s not so great. Very few of us have a Dylos.

Running an underpowered DC straight out, with no separation and no filtering is best. Whether it’s enough depends on HP and impeller as well as the blower housing design. If you add a separator, it’s worse. Always. No exceptions. If you had CFM to spare, and a good quality separator, then you may be okay. In the world of separators, it would seem that a Thein and an SDD are about the same, and a well designed cyclone is much better (and more expensive). “Better” is more separation efficiency and less insertion loss.

A Jet 1100 is underpowered. Less so than the HF, but it’s not enough to clear fines in a home shop, even with a great ducting system, no filter and no separator. So you need to wear a mask to be safe. If you wear a mask, then exhausting outside avoids having to clean a filter, at the expense of leaving dust trails. The size of the dust trails depends on the separator. The Thein and the SDD are decent, so the dust trail won’t be too bad, but it will be noticeable. You will get serious issues with makeup air if you are heating or cooling your shop.

The 1100 is not safe enough to clear fines, even with no separator and direct exhaust. Wear the mask to be safe. Read Pentz. Yes, he is extreme. To my knowledge, no one has found a factual error in his work. He is right. Annoyingly, expensively, right.

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KelleyCrafts

2681 posts in 579 days


#10 posted 01-10-2017 10:48 PM

Much better explanation brtech and I agree this time. A separator will 100% reduce flow. I agree with that. Currently my old 1100 has a 30 micron bag on it so it’s bad as it is. I don’t have a separator now but want to build one I think. With that said I have an air cleaner hanging on the ceiling and I do use a respirator anytime I fire on a machine because I have allergies and if I don’t, my throats will get sore pretty quick. I actually don’t mind wearing the respirator, it’s an easy off easy on one from 3M. I have a subscription for new cartridges on Amazon they ship every 2 months which is plenty for the hours of use rated on the package. I could probably even make that longer if I wanted.

So exhausting outside would mainly be for space. I would just mount the motor on the wall. Go to the separator and trash can the the other end out.

As for air in, I live in Arizona. It’s not humid here, and the cracks on the sides of the garage door in my old home should be plenty in, most times the door is open or cracked anyway.

-- http://kelleycrafts.com/ - pen blanks - knife scales - turning tools

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eflanders

219 posts in 1690 days


#11 posted 01-10-2017 11:04 PM

Brtech: In another post I asked if a Dust Deputy would be a worthwhile investment considering I am currently using a Thein separator (and a Wynn filter). Based on your answer above, it seems it would improve fine collection and “insertion”. Please help me to understand the term you used “insertion”? Will it be less cfm loss than the Thein? Due to climate issues I am not able to vent outside.

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Bob5103

81 posts in 674 days


#12 posted 01-10-2017 11:20 PM

I have my HF dc setup up with a super dust deputy and exhaust outside. There is very little to no visible dust outside.
I live in the country with no neighbors, but I would not hesitate to have this setup with neighbors. I am extremely pleased the setup.

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KelleyCrafts

2681 posts in 579 days


#13 posted 01-10-2017 11:29 PM

Thanks bob, that’s what I was hoping to hear. So you go from machine to separator straight to outside? Or does yours still have the bag after the separator then outside?

-- http://kelleycrafts.com/ - pen blanks - knife scales - turning tools

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brtech

1006 posts in 2763 days


#14 posted 01-11-2017 02:47 PM

“Insertion Loss” is an engineering term that means what degradation in the flow do you observe when you insert something in that flow. If you had a water pipe filled with water, and you measured water pressure (or flow rate, GPM), and then you spliced some restrictor in the pipe and again measured pressure or flow rate, you could characterize the “insertion loss” of the restrictor. Similarly, if you had the DC hooked up to a tool, and you measured the static pressure (inches of water) or the flow rate (CFM) and then you inserted the separator, you would observe a lower pressure and lower flow rate.

The separator improves separation (how much stuff makes it to the filter or, in this case, the exhaust vent) but decreases pressure and flow rate. How much it decreases pressure/flow rate is the insertion loss.

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AZWoody

1139 posts in 1064 days


#15 posted 01-11-2017 04:26 PM

I can’t remember when using my HF dust collectior but on the one I have now, most of the noise came from the outlet so you might need to check to make sure that won’t be a nuisance to the neighbors.

The dust probably will be less a problem and if so, you could have the port point down towards a barrel of water or something to trap it.

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