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Lie nielsen smoother. Which to choose?

19K views 30 replies 13 participants last post by  jsdnnoanybtr 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
I am trying to decide whether to buy the LN #4 bronze or the LN #4 1/2. I don't really know what the difference would be so I was wanting to see if anyone had either or had an idea which would be a better all around smoother. I mainly want it to finish leveling my boards after all machining and edge glueing and then whatever other general uses come up including a finishing touch on the faces of parts.
http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?sku=4_5
http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?sku=4
 
#4 ·
I have the LN 4 1/2 bronze special edition smoother with a high angle frog. I would not recommend a standard frog for any smoothing plane. High angle 50 degree will work for most applications. The 55 degree is for very difficult grains and where a person is doing a lot of it on a regular basis.
The 4 1/2 is heavier and a bit longer. This makes it much easier to use. Smoothing ebony and other hardwood inlay is a breeze.
 
#5 · (Edited by Moderator)
>Which LN to get ?<

My first responce is one of each. I love the things. But . . .
Be warned the bronze guys are more to look at than to use. They cut fine etc but they have more friction/drag on the wood. Takes constant waxing or oiling or tallowing. Nice to look at though.

For a working smoother and if you don't have the bucks to buy several planes, who does these days, I STRONGLY recommend this plane ( sorry LN I still love you ) :

http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=51870&cat=1,41182,41187&ap=1

You should be looking at a LV ( some times the link to a specific Lee Valley catalog page fails so I included a photo ) Bevel Up Smoother. I have the wide one. Killer tool ! I have many blades for it. I have many other planes I reach past to get to this one. Brilliant tool.

The other photo I included, I think obviously, is a LN Bronze. I bought early on when I knew even less than I know now. Nice to look at.

http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/th_OhYah.jpg

http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/th_Bronze4.jpg
 
#8 ·
Between the 4, 4 1/2 and the low angle smoother I say, get all three. You only live once. I have the 4 1/2 and I got it since it is a littel bigger than the 4. Also Deneb Puchalski from LN recommended the 4 1/2 over the 4 when I saw him at a LN show. I have also heard nothing but good things about the low angle smoother and that will be my next LN plane. Also, remember, LN products are made here in the USA so I always prefer the American made products especially when they are of superior craftsmanship.
 
#10 ·
Just to offer a different opinion. I suggest the #4. I don't really understand the fascination with the wide road-grader planes. They complicate sharpening and require a lot more force in use. If you normally use pretty mild run-of-the-mill woods get the 50º frog. If you use figured or quarter sawn wood, get the 55º frog. I think O-1 is a better steel for woodworking tools than A-2 so get it with an O-1 iron.

I suggest you get a regular bench plane and avoid the bevel-up planes. The claim of versatility comes over a very narrow range and costs a lot in edge retention.
 
#11 ·
hmmm… I believe I am a little more befuddled than before. So many different opinions. If the angle of the low angle smoother is pretty much the same as the regular smoothers then why go for the low angle? It costs a bit less so that's a consideration but I don't really care about cost at the moment. Oh, but I still only want to buy only one plane for now. Wish I could buy a couple but I have other responsibilities to take care of too… he
 
#12 ·
I have nearly everythin LN sells, and I was given much advice from salesman and other woodworkers when it comes to planes. most of it was crap. the first plane I ever owned was a LN 4 1/2 . and it is good if you don't have much smoothing to do, also being able to switch it to 50 and 55 frogs is nice. for much smoothing, it is heavy. which is why I would recommend a LN number 3. the narrower blade is easier to hold to sharpen if you are new, and the bed angle will handle 95 percent of wood if sharpened and tuned properly. the wood that it won't handle, you are better off to scrape(or just not use) anyway.
if I had to buy one LN smoother for everything, that would be the one.
 
#13 ·
My collection of planes has grown over the last couple years including a #4 bedrock, 4 1/2 Veritas plane and a LN #164 bevel up plane. I use all of them and they work well. I have the mind set of big projects, big planes small projects, small planes. I use a 4 1/2 on larger projects and a 4 and sometimes a 3 on smaller projects. I bought the the 164 speciifically for gnarly wood. I ground the blade to 43 degrees providing the the equilivent of a high angle frog and it is a dream to use. Do not discount the bevel up smoothers, for the price of a blade and some grinding you can get two planes out of one. Good Luck.
 
#15 · (Edited by Moderator)
>Don't really care about cost [for one plane] at the moment<
You know . . . you might really like one of these . . .

"Clark and Williams" http://www.planemaker.com/products.html

I haven't shelled out for one yet cause of my ideosincratic projects but for more normal stuff these are the advantages:

Light weight
Glides easily over the wood; more easily than a metal plane even when waxed
Multiple ways to grip it for tricky grain changes ( not being funny; serious comment)
A reproduction of a piece of history to enjoy.

Could be hard to get from maker. Could go with used. A new one would be my first choice.

Clark and Williams Smooth
 
#16 · (Edited by Moderator)
Since JorgeG and I have the same plane I don't feel like too much of a jerk in saying the adjuster is better on the Lee Valley Veritas smoother. The adjuster on the Lie Nielsen low angle or low angle jack can act as a gear, grip the slot of the blade and cause the blade to change angle when you only want to advance or retract the blade.

Even with fettling ( smoothing ) of the disc on the adjust knob and fettling of the slot on the LN blade it can still trip you up. LN good for rougher work with a cambered blade; an inadvertent change in angle of blade is not critical. For a smoother with almost no camber ( curve on the blade edge ) give me the Veritas adjuster any day.
 
#17 ·
Note on my post above says I have 49 minutes left to edit but cannot. So here I go again hoggin the thread. As far as the adjuster on the bevel down LN with the "chip breaker" screwed down on the blade before putting the blade in place

what a bunch of fittle fattling around . . . and spin, spin, spin the adjuster for some vague change in depth of cut.

Nah dude nah
 
#18 ·
jsdnnoanybtr

I have a plane that looks a whole lot like the one you have pictured. It was pretty old with I bought in the mid 80s. No name on the body that I can tell. The iron in it is wrong, wrong, wrong. The name on the iron is Ohio Tool Works but the thickness tapers from thick on the cutting end,to thinner on the non working end so it just will never lock up with the wedge.

The body has a crack in it at the mouth though i think it is still usable. If i put a proper iron in it.

Randy
 
#19 ·
Picture worth lotsa words. I don't own the 4 1/2 but I did opt for the #4 because it's lighter. The link shows some quilted maple that was raw. The #62 flattened it and made it somewhat smooth then the #4 cleaned it up.
http://picasaweb.google.com/PawPawDon62/MarkingKnifeAndMore# I really like the bevel up #62 …. could certainly use it as a smoother … as you can see.

good luck
 
#20 ·
Well, everyone has chimed in, so I won't get into the details. I have a LN #4 bronze with the HAF. It's my go-to for that final smoothing, as well as for tough grains. Believe it or not, my second favorite smoother is a Mujifang HA smoother. Good luck - either one is a fine plane.
 
#21 ·
Jarrod did a great job above of explaining how the angles add up in a bevel up plane and can be easily altered by just swapping blades. This is all true. Others have suggested the only way to get a higher angle out of a bevel down plane is to get a different frog. That is one way, but the other way is to simply hone a back bevel on the blade, then practically any angle greater than 45 is possible. So then angle changes become as simple as replacing the blade, just like on a bevel up plane.
 
#22 ·
@wolffarmer, the blades on the old wooden planes are supposed to be tapered. Thicker at the cutting edge, thinner at the tail. That is part of what helps the wedging action be so solid. If yours is not locking up, it is not the fault of the blade. It is possible your wedge either needs some adjustment or was not the matching wedge for the plane. I often see these old wooden planes with wedges that don't match. Hard to know whether they were just mixed up, used as an alternate because the original was broken, or is a user made replacement, or overly adjusted by a user to the point where it no longer works.
 
#23 ·
Well, I'm about to make the leap for the low angle smoother. I really like the availability to change the angle which means I will be another blade and sharpen it with a higher secondary. So now the question becomes, should I get the Veritas or the Lie nielsen. I really like LN tools but after jr's comments about the adjustability I'm leaning towards the Veritas. Man, who knew choosing a hand plane would be so nerve racking. OH, and when I said I didn't care how much it costs what I should have said was in the 2-4 hundred dollar range, which gives me all but the very best out there.
 
#24 ·
Luke, I would try each one for fit and feel in my hand before purchasing, if that is possible.

This spring I bought a new Veritas plane, brought it home and spent some time with it in my hands and found it was very uncomfortable for me to hold because of the shape of the handle (my paws are too big I guess).

This was another great thread with some interesting comments and info.

Got me interested enough that I looked at the planemaker site and bought a wooden plane. Thanks alot jsdnnoanybtr!
 
#25 · (Edited by Moderator)
A few things came to mind while reading other's posts:

>hands and uncomfortable grips<
not to contradict, what is true for you is true for you/no agrument, I had a different experience with the Veritas handles. Small hands here. I noticed how the Veritas handles seem straighter/less sculpted and curvy compared to the LNs. I felt a little jipped. Funny though they feel great to me and may even be more comfortable in use than the curvy stuff.

For instance the LN bevel up jack brused my palm for a long while after I began to use it weekly and even daily. The other LNs did not do this ( LN scrub, #4 bevel down and #7 bevel down ) . Now my hand has changed, got stronger or what ever, and it is no longer a problem. I couldn't even figure out how to address it as I am about to sugjest so I just put up with it and took breaks.

Some thoughts on plane handles : look for past articles on how to make your own handles. Fine Woodworking Mag and the British Mag Furniture and Cainetmaking both have some info on how to do that.

Don't be afraid to take a rasp to the handles you have. (if you can figure out where to change it) If nothing ellse it is an excellent reason to buy a Nicleson 50 or 55 rasp and you won't regret that. I hope to add a photo here of the handle on a bow saw I made from teak that demonstrates what I mean.



We will see if I am in good enough form to post another pic. Takes it out of me pic posting does. Always a different out come seems like. Big, way too small, just a blue link, and every once in a while BINGO I get a pic to just sit in the text and it is time for a beer and a message.

>#3 plane<
Yes I like those, in theory. Nice size. Gets me right there on the wrist though when I use one of the bloody things. See pic of my wrist bone. Bang !, Bang !, Bang ! Finally had to take the plane back to the store.


Woh ! Two for Two. Must have got the coffee to cookie ratio just right. Guess I will quit while I am ahead.
 
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