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Dust Collector - 3 HP Cyclone Fan Performance Curve

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Forum topic by Redoak49 posted 11-30-2016 11:29 PM 1727 views 1 time favorited 10 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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Redoak49

2906 posts in 1829 days


11-30-2016 11:29 PM

Topic tags/keywords: dust collector performance curve

Recently, we have seen a new design dust collector and has shown up as a Laguna, Jet and a couple of others. I was looking for some performance data and ran accross some confusing data.

On the Jet Website, the max CFM for the JCDC-3 Cyclone Dust Collector Kit, 3HP, 230V was listed at 1240 CFM with the US method and 1963 CFM for the EU method. I had no idea how they came up with the higher number. So, I called them and found that the EU method is done with no filter on the machine. This is really a misleading way of testing.

The data that Jet sent me also included how they tested the unit and it was a well done test done with good instruments.

However, I was able to get a performance curve for this unit from Jet. I expect that the data will be very similar for the Laguna version of this dust collector. I took the data from Jet and put it into a graph along with data for several other 3 HP cyclones. These included from Oneida the Super Dust Gorilla, the V series and Pro Series. Also, included are a Penn State, Grizzly, and the Jet.

I would include data for a ClearVue if I had the data but can not find it on their website.

I found it interesting that the Jet had the lowest performance of all the ones. It is a nice design but seems to lack the performance of the others.

I hope the information is useful to those looking at dust collectors.


10 replies so far

View JBrow's profile

JBrow

1276 posts in 760 days


#1 posted 12-01-2016 02:43 AM

Redoak49,

Since you mentioned the Clear Vue fan performance curve as a curve you would have liked have included with your data, I have posted a link to a thread on Clear Vue’s forum (where a link to Clear Vue fan performance curves exists). The Clear Vue fan performance curves also illustrates the difference in performance of their two units when coupled with 6” and 8” duct work. Mr. Pentz offered some comments which I did not fully understand but others might.

http://www.clearvuecyclones.com/forum/forum/clearvue-cyclones/product-questions/1082-cv1800-fan-curve

Since you limited your data to dust collectors in the 3 hp range and the Clear Vue 15” and 16” impellers are driven by a 5hp motor, the Clear Vue offers a little better performance than the 3hp models, as should be expected.

I am sure anyone looking to buy or upgrade their dust collector will find your post interesting. You did a lot of work and even though I am not in the market for a dust collector, I appreciate this information.

View Fred Hargis's profile

Fred Hargis

4769 posts in 2333 days


#2 posted 12-01-2016 11:56 AM

I do appreciate that info and find it useful. I’d still like to see more data from the manufacturers on the separation efficiency. I’m currently considering upgrading my SDG to a CV. I’m really unhappy with the SDG and it’s separation…especially of the finest particles. (Side note, I usually mention this and folks want to shift into the “diagnosing” fame of mind. Let’s skip that; I’ve done it all, including spending hours with Oneida and sending them a fair amount of data). Lacking that info, I’m very close to just ordering the CV and take it on faith it will do better. I’ll also move to the 16” impeller. The only other possibility (in my mind) is the Grizzly 3 HP unit.

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

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Redoak49

2906 posts in 1829 days


#3 posted 12-01-2016 12:30 PM

I had seen the ClearVue data but did not include it because it was 5 hp. When I have time, I will post a graph of 5 hp cyclones. I thought that the 3 hp data was of greater interest to folks as not as many go to 5 hp.

I have a 5 hp Super Dust Gorilla and am happy with it. I get very little fine dust in the filter. I do not have a drum sander but if I did the separation efficiency would be more important.

I also have the data for the 2 hp version of the Jet cyclone. I can a post it sometime in the future. I want to say this again that Jet did a good job testing their dust collectors and even provided amps for each data point. I am not certain why they did not put it on their website.

One reason for posting this is to help people looking at dust collectors. It is unfortunate that there is not more data available for the lower hp collectors. Many people post about their HF collector or1.5 -2.0 hp collectors and there is so little data. Unfortunately, some of these machines lack the capability to collect fine dust effectively.

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JBrow

1276 posts in 760 days


#4 posted 12-01-2016 09:48 PM

Fred Hargis,

You mentioned a datum that I never saw when researching cyclone dust collectors, the percent of dust separated by the cyclone. Since I have a Clear Vue cyclone, you are considering this dust collector, and you hope to improve fine dust separation, I thought I would share my experience and hopefully give you enough info that you can compare your Oneida unit to the Clear Vue before you commit to a buying decision.

I harbor the belief that a long taper on the cyclone funnel produces better separation but that is a statement of faith. Based on that belief, I had 3 hp Grizzly and Oneida models on my short list but ended up buying the Clear Vue CV1800. I was fortunate that Clear Vue ran a special when I bought the unit that included a 16” impeller as an upgrade in the CV1800 bundle price. The CV1800 also is outfitted with 300 square feet of filter area and thus translates into less frequent filter cleaning.

I began using the CV1800 a year ago and have cleaned the filters twice. The first cleaning was about 6 months after installing the dust collector. I cleaned the filter because the dust bin overflow sensor tripped and shut the cyclone off during a planing operation. I thought a filter cleaning was a good idea even though I saw no loss in performance, just to remove any shavings that may have made it to the filter stack. It was a compressed air backwash cleaning. The 2 gallon filter clean out box under the filter stack was about ½ – 3/4 full after this cleaning.

The second cleaning seemed to be needed, although I detected no at-the-tool performance degradation. I installed a shop-made monometer at the impeller outlet to monitor air velocity exiting the cyclone. I saw a slight drop in air velocity from when the filters were new. This cleaning was last month, about 1 year after installing the cyclone. This cleaning was a more thorough job that was the first cleaning. It netted two filter clean out boxes full of the fine dust, about 4 gallons.

In both cases the dust cleaned from the filters had the consistency of flour used in the kitchen, a very fine powder. I observed no course debris (like saw dust) or shavings in the filter clean out box during either cleaning.

I am a hobbyist. The dust collector pulls dust and debris from a 38” single drum sander, downdraft sanding table, and other typically woodworking equipment. I do find a fair amount of sanding dust in the dust collection barrel that is separated by the cyclone before reaching the filters during the drum sander and down draft table operations.

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Fred Hargis

4769 posts in 2333 days


#5 posted 12-02-2016 12:16 PM

I have no doubt that the less effective separation on mine is due to the basic design being done so poorly. I’ve read all of the Pentz data about the body sizing, and the Oneida doesn’t even come close (Grizzly seem to have copied it, tho). Interesting enough, when i was working this problem with Oneida (a Mr. Witter, whom I understand was the president of the company) I actually did test the separation on mine as best I could. Measured by volume, I was getting 98.6% separation…..versus the Oneida spec of 99%. That missing 1% was the flour, and it was all going to the filter. The problem was only a problem when i was using my drum sander a lot. It got to the point I installed a Magnehelic on the discharge to measure the back pressure on the filter. Once I hit 4”, I’d shut down everything and clean the filter. There were a few marathon sessions with the DS where I could see the pressure climb as I worked. The cleaning of my filter was a long process, often taking one hour or more (and a mess). I have to think your performance is better than mine, though it does sound like the DC isn’t perfect.

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

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Redoak49

2906 posts in 1829 days


#6 posted 12-02-2016 12:35 PM

Fred Hargis….I have read a number of your posts concerning problems with the Oneida dust collector and how the ClearVue does much better.

You commented that the Oneida Dust collector failed on its separation by 0.4%. I think that people would be very interested in your test methods and how you measured or weighed so accurately the amount of dust going into the filter and not separated out properly.

If you could post your methods and test equipment, I might try to run the same experiment on my Oneida dust collector. Good data and accurate data are a big help to people deciding on a dust collector.

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Fred Hargis

4769 posts in 2333 days


#7 posted 12-02-2016 01:09 PM

I don’t consider my results a failure, in fact they (in my mind) verify Oneida’s performance spec. But I don’t think 99% is good enough…hence the flour in my filter. Also, I’ve only said that the CV meats the criteria Pentz found to be most effective in this separation, I’ve never had one so can’t verify that fact, I take it on faith since I believe Pentz has done all the work already. But for my testing here’s the method I used and Oneida said was as good as I could do without a laboratory. I first cleaned the machine and filter as best i good. The filter was hand slapped to knock as much dust out of the pleats as possible. Then I dismounted it from the dc, laid it on it’s side on the floor and picked each end up about 18” and dropped it (dislodging more dust), rotate it 1/8 turn, and repeat. Empty that dust out, then stand it on end on the floor, cover the top and blow through the outside with an air gun trying to cover the entire exterior surface. The last step is to lay it back on it’s side (on sawhorses) and use a shop vac with a brush and carefully vac the inside of the filter. That was as clean as I could get it. The next step took a while. I simply reassembled the DC and went about my normal stuff until the dust bin ( a 55 gallon drum for me) was full. Then I measured the dust level in the drum and calculated the volume. The next step was to repeat that filter cleaning process, only this time I captured the dust. Wasn’t able to do that with the shop vac step, but i still did the best I could. I then measured the volume of what i had collected by putting the dust in a box and calculating the volume. That resulted in the filter dust being 1.4% of all I had generated….not perfect but it’s what I had. One other thing, while I’ve always assailed Oneida for the design, I’ve never attacked the quality of the build of the unit. The impeller is almost a work of art, and the body is like an M1A1. But I gt the impression they didn’t feel catching the last 1% of the fines is worth the extra work of building in a proper neautral vane, squared sloping inlet, air ramp, and tighter body dimensions was worth the effort; and I’d say that 99% of the woodworkers would agree. I’m just not one of that 99%.

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

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Redoak49

2906 posts in 1829 days


#8 posted 12-02-2016 05:07 PM

I understand better now your conclusions even though you did not run the same test on a ClearVue. I also understand that you believe that a dust collector should get 100% of the dust in the cyclone and you feel that Oneida should be doing that.

What per cent of the dust ends up in the filter of a ClearVue dust collector? Is it 100%. ?

Given your requirements, why do we even need a filter?

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Fred Hargis

4769 posts in 2333 days


#9 posted 12-02-2016 06:11 PM

Actually, if I was able to vent outside with my unit, I wouldn’t need to replace it. Heat loss keeps me from doing that. But if you had a perfect cyclone, you wouldn’t need a filter…but they don’t exist, and there will always be a small amount of dust that needs to be captured at the filter. Besides, if you overfill the dust bin, you want backup with the filter (BTW, don’t ever,ever, do that. Royal PITA). I don’t expect 100%, but I want better than what I have…having to clean the filter is a pain, and eventually hard on the filter. I had to replace my OEM Oneida filter after 6 years (I went with a much better made and cheaper, aftermarket filter).

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

View JBrow's profile

JBrow

1276 posts in 760 days


#10 posted 12-02-2016 08:02 PM

Fred Hargis,

I think the problem is not one of separation efficiency but rather one of efficient filter cleaning. If filter cleaning is faster and easier then separation efficiency is of less importance. I am aware of three methods for cleaning dust collection filters, manual filter cleaning, mechanical filter cleaning, and reverse air filter cleaning. A short article by Donaldson and Torit provides an overview of these methods for industrial applications, although the mechanical and reverse air methods could be adopted for the small shop.

http://www2.donaldson.com/torit/en-us/pages/technicalinformation/optimizing-dust-collector-filter-cleaning-technology.aspx

Most small shops I presume use the manual filter cleaning method; backwashing with compressed air or vacuuming. Since this method is a time consuming and tedious task, it is best delayed. Increasing the filter area and ensuring highly efficient separation are the only ways I can think of to make this manual method any better.

Some dust collectors offer a mechanical method of filter cleaning, generally a flapper mounted inside the filter that snaps against the high pressure side of the filter and in so doing, dislodging caked on dust. Grizzly offers a brush that replaces the flapper. I suppose a vibration plate or other mechanism could be built, but regular vibration from a shop built system could cause leaking and potentially damage the filters. I did find a 3hp dust collector that offers automatic filter vibration whenever the dust collector is turned off. It is pricey at $2300, but is an interesting option for a small shop.

http://www.lagunatools.com/accessories/dustcollectors/dustcollector-cyclone3m

I recall see a reverse air method for filter cleaning offered by Penn State Industries, although now that they seem to have ended the sale of dust collectors, I am not sure whether this accessory is available. But such a system could be simple enough to incorporate into an existing cyclone system. A pair of wye fittings with blast gates at the inlet and outlet of the cyclone could be used to reverse air flow. Air could be drawn into the system through the filter by running a flex hose to the cyclone inlet from the filter cleanout box. Then a flex hose would run from the cyclone outlet to a course filter bag or outdoors. When the cyclone is operating in this configuration, air would be pulled through the filters and into the cyclone, carrying any dust cake dislodged by the reverse flow to the cyclone. Any dust not separated and removed by the cyclone would be discharged out the cyclone outlet to the course filter bag for collection and disposal.

The day may come when I may implement this reverse air method. If I do I will work to make filter cleaning a matter of opening and closing blast gates. Also I will first check with the filter maker to ensure the reverse air method will not destroy my filters.

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