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Forum topic by MrRon posted 11-30-2016 06:00 PM 870 views 0 times favorited 15 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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MrRon

4497 posts in 3083 days


11-30-2016 06:00 PM

I visit this forum, and others as well to give advise and provide answers to other’s problems. At 82, I feel it is my obligation to give back some of the experience and knowledge I have gained over the years.

Here is where the apology comes in. I am more a metalworking than a woodworking guy, so my given advise is often based on my metalworking tendencies. Because I work with precision measuring tools, that reflects my statements on woodworking measurements. I know that some of you are challenged at working at anything less than a 32nd of an inch. To a metal worker, that means 0.032” which is an ENORMOUS amount. Working to .001” or less is no big deal to me, but I sometimes don’t get that across to LJ’s. I always try to work as precision as I can regardless of it being wood, metal or plastic. I maintain that working as close as you can will make your finished projects a bit more successful.

As in school, we were taught to always aim at getting an “A” and maybe you will end up with a “B”, but if you try for a “C”, you could end up barely passing or even total failure. The same logic applies to woodworking; aim for the closest you can. You may not hit the mark, but you will be much closer than if you hadn’t.

Again I apoligize and will try to address woodworkers on woodworking terms.


15 replies so far

View HokieKen's profile

HokieKen

4515 posts in 978 days


#1 posted 11-30-2016 06:31 PM

LOL Ron. Don’t sweat it. I feel where you’re coming from completely. I’m an engineer but spent 10 years or so as a machinist. In both occupations, +/-.005 is a mile of slop. Took me a while to get used to working to fractions instead of decimals too ;-)

-- Kenny, SW VA, Go Hokies!!!

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Aj2

1178 posts in 1637 days


#2 posted 11-30-2016 06:35 PM

I think it’s great to have a Metal worker on board.Im guessing you are a machinist?
This is one area I fall short.
Here’s something I’ve been noticing this week.My shop is uninsulated the weather sure turn around quick.90s+ to 60 In almost a week.I really feel like my woodworking machines run better when it’s cold.
Esp my jointer since its 1900 lbs of cast iron in the summer when it’s 100+ it’s runs a little rougher.Plus the table lips sit a little proud of the tables.Now that it’s cools nicely at night everything seems tighter.
What do you think Ron?

-- Aj

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jmartel

7531 posts in 1989 days


#3 posted 11-30-2016 06:40 PM

To be fair, if you’re 1/32” off on a mortise & tenon joint, it’s not going to work either. The tolerance between too loose and too tight is on the order of 0.01” or less. So, 1/128”?

-- The quality of one's woodworking is directly related to the amount of flannel worn.

View HokieKen's profile

HokieKen

4515 posts in 978 days


#4 posted 11-30-2016 06:41 PM



I think it s great to have a Metal worker on board.Im guessing you are a machinist?
This is one area I fall short.
Here s something I ve been noticing this week.My shop is uninsulated the weather sure turn around quick.90s+ to 60 In almost a week.I really feel like my woodworking machines run better when it s cold.
Esp my jointer since its 1900 lbs of cast iron in the summer when it s 100+ it s runs a little rougher.Plus the table lips sit a little proud of the tables.Now that it s cools nicely at night everything seems tighter.
What do you think Ron?

- Aj2

I know you asked Ron, but my $.02: Metal expands with heat much like wood with moisture (although to a much lesser degree). So it is indeed possible for things like bearings to tighten up when it’s cold and loosen when hot. Most noticably when interacting parts are made of dissimilar metals – cast iron bore/bronze bearing/steel shaft – since the expansion rate is different for different materials.

-- Kenny, SW VA, Go Hokies!!!

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Bill White

4807 posts in 3799 days


#5 posted 11-30-2016 06:57 PM

Ron, don’t sweat it. I’m one of those who tries to get as close to .000?.... as possible. Add a number if you wish.
Though I don’t live by the plane mantra of having a shaving that is stupid thin, I do try to be as accurate as the job requires,
Bill

-- bill@magraphics.us

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MrRon

4497 posts in 3083 days


#6 posted 11-30-2016 07:13 PM


I think it s great to have a Metal worker on board.Im guessing you are a machinist?
This is one area I fall short.
Here s something I ve been noticing this week.My shop is uninsulated the weather sure turn around quick.90s+ to 60 In almost a week.I really feel like my woodworking machines run better when it s cold.
Esp my jointer since its 1900 lbs of cast iron in the summer when it s 100+ it s runs a little rougher.Plus the table lips sit a little proud of the tables.Now that it s cools nicely at night everything seems tighter.
What do you think Ron?

- Aj2


Temperature plays a big part in metal working. Just the act of holding a metal part in your hand while measuring it can lead to measuring errors. The dimensional changes due to temperature change is very small and doesn’t affect most metalworking as long as the temperature changes are not extreme. a change of ±.0005” can be tolerated in home shops. A jointer may not be considered a “precision tool”, but it is a precision made tool, subject to expansion /contraction. As long as adjoining parts expand/contract by the same (or close to the same), the machine will operate pretty much as it should without issue. Bearings for example have a built in tolerance to compensate for exp/cont; without that tolerance, a bearing would cease to operate and would no longer be a bearing. They have to have clearance to operate. What affects machinery most in extreme temperature change is lubrication. Grease in bearings can get so thick in cold weather that a machine will trip the breaker on start up. In very hot weather, lubricants can liquify to the point where the bearing will lose it’s lubricant (running dry).

View Redoak49's profile

Redoak49

2906 posts in 1828 days


#7 posted 11-30-2016 07:16 PM

I do not think that with a temperature change of 30 F you will notice a change.

For a 1” think piece of cast iron and a 30 F change, the thermal expansion is 0.0021”.

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MrRon

4497 posts in 3083 days


#8 posted 11-30-2016 07:46 PM



I do not think that with a temperature change of 30 F you will notice a change.

For a 1” think piece of cast iron and a 30 F change, the thermal expansion is 0.0021”.

- Redoak49


True, you will not notice a change, but if the adjoining piece of metal now makes contact where there was a clearance previously, you will notice it. You will be going from a “sliding or loose” fit to an “interference or press” fit.

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Aj2

1178 posts in 1637 days


#9 posted 11-30-2016 08:07 PM

I’m pretty sure I am seeing change.I could fit a .002 feeler gauge under my straight edge at this spot where the incline shoe supports the table.When I look at it today it’s flat.
I can also see the table lip is maybe .001 below the table.The spot where I scraped it down is visible.
I wonder if Oliver made my machine in the Michigan Winter?
Thanks for everyone’s response.

-- Aj

View JoeinGa's profile

JoeinGa

7726 posts in 1846 days


#10 posted 11-30-2016 09:07 PM

So if I call out a measurement to you, hollering “Forty two inches and 7 or those little marks” isn’t good enough?
.
.

-- Perform A Random Act Of Kindness Today ... Pay It Forward

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Aj2

1178 posts in 1637 days


#11 posted 11-30-2016 10:20 PM

I can’t believe someone is letting that kid play with matches.He could burn his finger.:)

Aj

-- Aj

View Fred Hargis's profile

Fred Hargis

4764 posts in 2332 days


#12 posted 11-30-2016 10:25 PM

Ron, I’ve read your posts for a very long time (going back to the days of the Wood Magazine forum) and have never had a problem with anything you’ve said…...keep on trucking, it’s welcome advice.

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

View MrRon's profile (online now)

MrRon

4497 posts in 3083 days


#13 posted 12-01-2016 05:43 PM



Ron, I ve read your posts for a very long time (going back to the days of the Wood Magazine forum) and have never had a problem with anything you ve said…...keep on trucking, it s welcome advice.

- Fred Hargis
</blockquot
Thanks for the kind words. I hope my experience can help others.

View waho6o9's profile (online now)

waho6o9

8036 posts in 2416 days


#14 posted 12-01-2016 05:56 PM

Your experiences and dispensing of knowledge is greatly appreciated Mr. Ron

No need to apologize.

View Richard's profile

Richard

1912 posts in 2529 days


#15 posted 12-01-2016 06:02 PM

Ron , No problem with any of your posts here either. We as Woodworkers just wish we could get the wood to behave as well as Metal does and not move around or resize it’s self as much as it does.
So Metal or Wood we just have to deal with how it works , but get it as close as you can is the best way to go.

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