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Hot Hide Hammer Veneer Terrible Bubbling

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Forum topic by jonsprague0000 posted 11-03-2016 12:57 AM 749 views 0 times favorited 24 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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jonsprague0000

104 posts in 1422 days


11-03-2016 12:57 AM

Topic tags/keywords: veneer burl hammer veneer hammer veneering hot hide glue hide glue marquetry

My first attempt at hammer venneering ash burl with hot hide glue was a complete failure. Terrible bubbles formed that I have not been successful in flattening. I’m hoping you could give me some advice.

Iv attached images.

- Iv attempted to reactive the glue under the bubbles and re-hammer. I have slight improvements but it won’t cut it. Iv also sliced the bubbles and applied more hot hide. Is this trouble normal with burl?

- Iv hammered 2-ply successfully in the past and it immediately laid down flat. Does anyone have any instructions on making 2-ply? I can’t seem to find any online.

- The veneer seemed very flat before I hammered it. I didn’t spray it with veneer flattener. Is this a must do before even though it was flat.

- Any other tips would be appreciated.


24 replies so far

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Lazyman

1497 posts in 1220 days


#1 posted 11-03-2016 02:01 AM

t don’t have enough experience to help but did the waves appear as soon as you applied the hide glue, when you were hammering or later?

-- Nathan, TX -- Hire the lazy man. He may not do as much work but that's because he will find a better way.

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jonsprague0000

104 posts in 1422 days


#2 posted 11-03-2016 02:35 AM

I believe they appeared within 5 minutes of me completing the hammering. I know they weren’t there when I first coated both sides of the veneer with glue. I don’t have the exact timeframe as I was so focused on hammering hard and quick.

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shipwright

7779 posts in 2631 days


#3 posted 11-03-2016 02:47 AM

If five minutes had passed the veneer should have been well stuck and the glue almost cool. I don’t think that veneer softener will help you. Have you tried ironing the bubbles out? Apply a mist of water and keep the temp down on the iron (quite hot to touch but doesn’t burn you). It should get the job done. Burl can be tricky but it should work.
The biggest mistake I find people making in hammer veneering is having their glue too thick. It should be considerably thinner than PVA glue.
...... you may have ruined it by making cuts however.

-- Paul M ..............If God wanted us to have fiberglass boats he would have given us fibreglass trees. http://thecanadianschooloffrenchmarquetry.com/

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jonsprague0000

104 posts in 1422 days


#4 posted 11-03-2016 03:01 AM

Thanks shipwright. I’ve tried ironing and can get the small ones down, but the big ones seem to not lie flat. I did pore the glue a bit thick because I assumed the hammer would easily push out the excess. I wonder if I just wasn’t able to work it fast enough due to the size. I’ll try another piece tomorrow with a very thin layer and keep you updated.

Do you apply your veneer dry if it appears to be in good shape?

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shipwright

7779 posts in 2631 days


#5 posted 11-03-2016 03:29 AM

The water holds the heat. Thinner glue will give you more time and thicker takes more time to push out.
Thick glue becomes a lose / lose situation. My guess is you will do better tomorrow.
Have a look at this video. Maybe you will see something that will help.
https://youtu.be/D3SLEvvtS0c

-- Paul M ..............If God wanted us to have fiberglass boats he would have given us fibreglass trees. http://thecanadianschooloffrenchmarquetry.com/

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jonsprague0000

104 posts in 1422 days


#6 posted 11-03-2016 04:28 AM

Thanks for the additional details. I misunderstood you at first and didn’t realize you were talking about the viscosity. I’ll thin out my viscosity.

Does it matter how thick you lay the glue before applying the veneer? I normally slop down the glue, spread it quickly, rub the veneer face in the substrate, pore some on the back, flip and hammer. When gluing regular lumber a very thin coat of titebond beats a thick slop of glue. Does the same concept apply here?

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shipwright

7779 posts in 2631 days


#7 posted 11-03-2016 04:35 AM

It takes only a film to glue the joint. The rest should be squeezed out by the hammer. You don’t need a lot. Did you look at the video? It will give you a good idea of how much to use and how much should be squeezing out.

-- Paul M ..............If God wanted us to have fiberglass boats he would have given us fibreglass trees. http://thecanadianschooloffrenchmarquetry.com/

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jonsprague0000

104 posts in 1422 days


#8 posted 11-03-2016 01:51 PM

Just watched the video. This makes a lot of sense. I’ll thin it out tonight. Thanks for all the help Paul.

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Carloz

954 posts in 425 days


#9 posted 11-03-2016 07:37 PM

I guess narrow pieces shown in the video are drastically easier to apply than the one large piece in OP

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shipwright

7779 posts in 2631 days


#10 posted 11-03-2016 10:54 PM



I guess narrow pieces shown in the video are drastically easier to apply than the one large piece in OP

- Carloz


Actually it is no harder until the piece becomes quite large. The smaller pieces require several repetitions and fittings while the larger requires more glue in play at once but is finished in one go. Each has its difficult parts and it’s easier parts. At least that’s my experience.

-- Paul M ..............If God wanted us to have fiberglass boats he would have given us fibreglass trees. http://thecanadianschooloffrenchmarquetry.com/

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jonsprague0000

104 posts in 1422 days


#11 posted 11-04-2016 01:29 AM

Paul, I’m heating my hide glue now and have had it sitting in 140 degree water for about an hour. The glue looks like a good consistency, but when I checked the temperature of the glue itself it only is 90-100 degrees. Is this correct or should the glue get up to 140 as well. All the instructions talk about the water temp but not the glue temp.

My setup is a pan full of water sitting on a hot plate. Then I fill a Rubbermaid container with a cup of hide glue glue and a cup of water and let is float in the pan with a lid. The hide glue was ore soaked.

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shipwright

7779 posts in 2631 days


#12 posted 11-04-2016 02:05 AM

The glue must be fully hydrated before heating (soft gel)
Then the glue itself must be 140 – 150 degrees. You may have better luck with a glass jar for the glue. 100 degrees (F) is nowhere near hot enough. The water will have to get hotter to get the glue temp up but turn it down before the glue overheats.
Here is a setup I use as backup. It uses a thermostatically controlled kettle (~$20) and a jar. Lots of people use similar setups. My main pot, the HoldHeet is in the back right.

-- Paul M ..............If God wanted us to have fiberglass boats he would have given us fibreglass trees. http://thecanadianschooloffrenchmarquetry.com/

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Mosquito

9094 posts in 2125 days


#13 posted 11-04-2016 02:11 AM

My first make-shift glue pot was a glass jar in a dip sized slow cooker (16oz I think). That worked much the same way as the Hold-Heet in principle, but the temperature wasn’t quite right. It did work, though

-- Mos - Twin Cities, MN - http://www.youtube.com/MosquitoMods - http://www.TheModsquito.com

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jonsprague0000

104 posts in 1422 days


#14 posted 11-04-2016 02:20 AM

Ahh, my plastic container was too thick. Switched to a tin can and it’s heating right up. I’ll update you soon.

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jonsprague0000

104 posts in 1422 days


#15 posted 11-04-2016 03:05 AM

I’m getting closer but not out of the woods yet. The glue was around 140 after switching to a tin can and while using it it took longer to hear the crackling sound of the glue hardening. Great!

I did run into a few issues after hammering 2 panels. The first panel seemed to have the same severe bubbling. The bubbles seemed to form after I started hearing the crackling. I had been hammering pretty hard and putting some body weight into the hammer. My though is maybe I pushed hard enough to push too much glue out from under the piece. Is this something that happens? How much force do you put behind the hammer?

For the second panel I decided to hammer much lighter. It felt much much better and the veneer laid down nicely. Around the time I heard crackling I still noticed a few bubbles forming but they were much smaller. Within a few minutes I tried to fix one of the .5 inch sized bubbles by heating the bubble up with an iron. I pressed the iron to it for about 3 seconds and then the veneer came loose around it forming a 4×4 inch bubble. I immediately tried to hammer it back down, but there was more veneer than I could lie flat. It started folding over on itself.

So based on that I have a few more questions.
- how do you prevent the surrounding veneer from popping up when spot fixing? I didn’t completely clean off the spot so the iron may have stuck a bit when lifting, but I can’t imagine it pulled that much.
- how come the bubble seems to not lie flat without folding over? Is this normal? It’s like the veneer grew.

- what’s the proper hammer strength? Can glue be pushed out causing dry spots?

I have attached a picture below. The big torn bubble is the one I described. The tear wasn’t caused during the process. I tore it open after the fact to investigate. It seemed like one side laid down perfect while the other bubbled a bit. This picture is from the second round where I hammered much more gently.

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