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Shaper chatter marks

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Forum topic by mtjim posted 10-31-2016 06:05 PM 537 views 0 times favorited 10 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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mtjim

12 posts in 564 days


10-31-2016 06:05 PM

Topic tags/keywords: shaper chatter marks

I have used a number of shapers with 3/4” spindles (an old powermatic, Rockwell, and newer Delta) and they all leave chatter marks even with good sharp cutters. Is this caused by the fact that the cutter has to slide over the spindle and therefore isn’t always centered or is this fixed with an 1 1/4” spindle. I have seen an insert cutter head that was fitted with a compression collett similar to what is used in a router only for shaper spindle. Is anyone familiar with these and do they work? I am trying to decide between a much cheaper shaper with a 3/4” spindle and a shaper with a 1 1/4” spindle. I know that there are other factors to consider but the chatter is one of my main gripes with the shapers that I have used in the past. Any ideas would be appreciated.


10 replies so far

View cabmaker's profile

cabmaker

1621 posts in 2643 days


#1 posted 10-31-2016 09:52 PM

Sounds like the problems you have experienced need more explanation

I have used 3/4 spindles more than 1 1/4 and don’t have that problem with either

JB

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AHuxley

652 posts in 3156 days


#2 posted 10-31-2016 09:57 PM

1 1/4” spindles work the same way as a 3/4” spindle. The lightweight shapers like the PM26/27 Delta Heavy Duty and Grizzly 1026 are more prone to vibration than the bigger, heavier and better built machines. However, just because a shaper takes a 1 1/4” spindle doesn’t mean it will be better. While a shaper is a very simple machine at its core it take high tolerances to spin big tooling at 5K to 10K rpm with virtually no vibration.

Insert tooling works fine on a shaper, at least the quality ones do. They are very useful for the hobbyist since the cutters are cheap and for the pro they work well for the one off profiles but will cost more per foot over time if they are used enough compared to standard carbide tooling.

A quality well setup shaper will not give chatter IF you make the calculations correctly, yes math…

For final or fine cutting I like to keep the chip load under .015, rim speed around 200 fps and knife marks around 25 per inch or higher. Now a lot of people will not go this far and run faster and come closer to 18 knife marks per inch. What you will find is small diameter cutters (in the 4” range) are going to be hard to get these numbers from, which goes to show bigger tooling is almost always better.

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mtjim

12 posts in 564 days


#3 posted 11-01-2016 03:46 AM


Sounds like the problems you have experienced need more explanation

I have used 3/4 spindles more than 1 1/4 and don t have that problem with either

JB

- cabmaker

It is quite possible that I was not using the shaper correctly. I have primarily used a delta 3hp shaper with a power feed using freeborn cutters for raised panel doors. The chatter is never really bad but it does need to be sanded and this is what I am trying to reduce or eliminate. I am looking at the 5hp laguna shaper for $2800. There is also a delta 3hp shaper on cregs list for $900 and I am wondering if the bigger shaper is worth the $. I have a small hobby shop and am hoping and will primarily use it for cabinet door construction. However, I also want to be able run an insert spiral jointing cutter to remove saw marks on trim and face frame pieces to speed up sanding. But trading saw marks for chatter marks isn’t a very good option. I know that there are advantages to having a joiner but I don’t have one and am limited in space so was hoping to dual task the shaper. Is this reasonable. What type of 3/4” spindle shaper have you had good success with? I would not be opposed to getting a used more heavy duty shaper like the PM or SCMI but is seems like most of the ones that I have seen come through the used market are 3 phase and I don’t have 3 phase in my shop.

Thank you for your help.

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unbob

800 posts in 1738 days


#4 posted 11-01-2016 04:28 AM

I have been playing around with shapers for a couple of years, most surface finish problems I have had were related to the condition of the bearings.
After going through the usual suspects, I ended up with a very heavy 1 1/4” spindle shaper with precision spindle bearings.
Cutters have slightly oversize hole so you can get them on and off the spindle. If the run-out from that seems to cause a problem, placing a dial indicator on the cutter teeth and tapping on the cutter with a piece of wood as the lock nut is tightened, the cutter can be brought as true as it was ground. I am pretty easy on a shaper and have not had a cutter shift back out of true.

View sawdustdad's profile

sawdustdad

334 posts in 719 days


#5 posted 11-01-2016 01:40 PM

I have a 3hp Delta Shaper and have never seen chatter marks on any raised panels I’ve run. A couple thoughts to consider…

1. bad bearings or excessive run out on shaft, perhaps bent by PO? Check with dial indicator.
2. erratic or too fast stock feeder/feeding. If you feed fast enough, you’ll get wavy results just like feeding too fast over a jointer.
3. Faulty cutter-one high blade that does all the cutting, thus fewer cut’s inch. combined with too fast feed rate, results in wavy cut patterns.

If either of the first two conditions exist, a new cutter head will not solve the problem. If it’s doing it with multiple cutters, then that might rule out #3.

Oh, one more thing, you really need the jointer. While the shaper might smooth the edges of a board, the short fences will not straighten a warped board very well. A cheap portable benchtop jointer would be preferable for smoothing the edges of stock compared to a shaper—even if only in the savings in set up time.

-- Murphy's Carpentry Corollary #3: Half of all boards cut to a specific length will be too short.

View AHuxley's profile

AHuxley

652 posts in 3156 days


#6 posted 11-01-2016 04:39 PM


I would not be opposed to getting a used more heavy duty shaper like the PM or SCMI but is seems like most of the ones that I have seen come through the used market are 3 phase and I don t have 3 phase in my shop.

Thank you for your help.

- mtjim

3ph is only a inexpensive VFD away.

How many knife markes per inch are you shoooting for currently?

View Texcaster's profile

Texcaster

1262 posts in 1508 days


#7 posted 11-01-2016 07:16 PM

A power feed, dialed into the swing of different radius cutters makes a big difference.

-- Mama calls me Texcaster but my real name is Mr. Earl.

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Kirk650

513 posts in 583 days


#8 posted 11-01-2016 09:02 PM

A guy gave me his old Delta Rockwell shaper. He got it from a widow whose shopteacher husband had died. The reason he offered it to me was that it would not cut at all. I got it home and found that even though the cutters were installed correctly, he had the motor running in reverse.

Anyway, the old shaper is cutting great (now that I took it out of reverse), even with old non-carbide cutters. No chatter marks. I did sharpen the cutters.

Same guy has a Grizzly 15 inch planer with the spiral carbide cutterhead. Says he can’t get it to work right. I’m staying close to him, in case he decides to give it away and buy a new one. And…no chance I’ll even tell you what state he lives in.

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mtjim

12 posts in 564 days


#9 posted 11-02-2016 12:15 AM


I would not be opposed to getting a used more heavy duty shaper like the PM or SCMI but is seems like most of the ones that I have seen come through the used market are 3 phase and I don t have 3 phase in my shop.

Thank you for your help.

- mtjim

3ph is only a inexpensive VFD away.

How many knife markes per inch are you shoooting for currently?

- AHuxley

I apparently don’t know enough about shapers to know how many knife marks I should be shooting for but I would think the more the better. Do you have a recommendation and how does it affect your choice and set-up of your machine. I have always assumed that the shower the stock feed and the faster the spindle speed the smoother the cut (obviously avoiding burning your wood). I have never owned my own shaper so the times I have used one it has been in someone else’s shop and so I have not messed with the setup of the machine that much.

What do you mean by an inexpensive vfd away? Is there a way to convert a 3 phase to a 1 phase and if so how do you go about doing that? There is a pretty nice older 3 phase powermatic for sale for $1700 that I would be interested in if it was not to difficult to convert.

Again thanks for all the input.

View cabmaker's profile

cabmaker

1621 posts in 2643 days


#10 posted 11-02-2016 01:18 AM

mt jim…...hahaha,,,, love it…how many knife marks you shooting for ? hahaha

I wouldn’t get too wrapped up in that, life is getting shorter every minute

Your analogy is basically correct about feed it slow, spin it fast, etc,etc

Those are things to be more concerned about when your into serious millwork where cutter speed and feed rates are often varied due to i.e.; species, moisture content,grain bias,etc.

enjoy….you ll know when its too slow !

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