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Walnut Barn Door with glass inserts

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Forum topic by atilla posted 10-21-2016 09:15 PM 736 views 0 times favorited 7 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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atilla

8 posts in 427 days


10-21-2016 09:15 PM

HI
I am in the final stages of planning my Walnut Barn Door and as a this is new to me i have a couple of questions

This barn door is for interior use. its 80×20 walnut with 4 glass panes.

I bought lumber from the lumber yard so i had to make due in some cases. In my design the stiles is supposed to be 3 5/8 (and i understand that is kind of standard) can i use 3 1/2? Do i need to add a 1/8 piece onto it? Or should i just make all the stiles 3 1/2?

Can i use a 3.5” tenon for a 9.5” bottom rail? Should i split it into two tenons? The door thickness is 1 3/8” can i make the tenon/mortise – 1/2” since thats the tool (chisel) i have?

Finally, my door is going to have glass inserts. I think i should consider how to replace a pane if it breaks. each pane will be held by 4 sides of plough cuts. On one side of the door, should i make three of the four plough cuts removeable? Or is there a better way of doing this?

Thanks
atilla


7 replies so far

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AandCstyle

2901 posts in 2091 days


#1 posted 10-21-2016 09:49 PM

Atilla, IMO, it depends on where the door will be used. If it is for a bedroom or bathroom, you light want it to seal fairly tightly. If is is for a closet, then the 3.5” would not be an issue. I would go with two 3” tenons and 1/2” should be fine. For the windows, make the openings 1/16” larger than the glass and make narrow strips so the opening on both sides is the same. Screw the strips in place with black or dark bronze screws. FWIW

-- Art

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atilla

8 posts in 427 days


#2 posted 10-22-2016 03:06 PM

Hi Art
The doors will be for a library. and their will be two of them that will slide outward, but not into a pocket.

We do want to seal it tight as possible to maximize privacy, but the nature of the barn door rail will mean that there is a fair gap all around the opening. But i think you are referring to the opening around the glass.

So would you do a 3” tenon and add on a 1/2” strip to capture the glass? No plough cut at all. Thats a very interesting approach.

Along that line, i wonder if i can start with tenons that are 3.5”. Make a .375 inch plough cut. then cut one of the ploughs off at the table saw and pin nail it back on to capture the glass. I would also do that on the mullions i guess.

Any thoughts on this:
For the Bottom Rail. Can i use a 3.5” tenon for a 9.5” bottom rail? Should i split it into two tenons? The door thickness is 1 3/8” can i make the tenon/mortise – 1/2” since thats the tool (chisel) i have?

Thanks,
atilla

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AandCstyle

2901 posts in 2091 days


#3 posted 10-22-2016 09:29 PM

Atilla, sorry that I wasn’t clear. I was referring to the gap around the door.

The 3” tenons were for the bottom rail.

I would avoid using the pins because it would be difficult to remove the glass if that should ever be necessary. Screws would be better IMO.

-- Art

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JBrow

1272 posts in 754 days


#4 posted 10-23-2016 02:42 AM

atilla,

In my design the stiles is supposed to be 3 5/8 (and i understand that is kind of standard) can i use 3 1/2?

I see no reason why stiles could not be 3-1/2” wide. A scale drawing of the doors would reveal whether the 1/8” makes any difference in the proportions of the door, which for me would be the overriding factor. I personally doubt that an 1/8” would make much difference structurally or from a design perspective.

Can i use a 3.5” tenon for a 9.5” bottom rail? Should i split it into two tenons?

I have seen double tenons used for wide rails but I have not used these. In this case I would cut a single long mortise and long tenon. The top shoulder of the tenon would be sized to allow the 9-1/2” wide rail to expand. I would however only glue the bottom 3” or so of the tenon. This would allow the rail to expand upward. The key to this approach is a snug fitting tenon.

If you elect to use a double tenon, I would allow for expansion of the rail in the upper tenon and only glue the lower tenon. Again, snug fitting tenons is key, otherwise the rail could eventually stand proud of the stile.

My concern over gluing both tenons in place or gluing one long tenon along it length is that should the 9-1/2” rail ever decide to contract, the bottom rail could split.

The door thickness is 1 3/8” can i make the tenon/mortise – 1/2” since thats the tool (chisel) i have?

By my way of thinking, the ideal mortise width is 1/3 of the thickness of the stock. Stock that is 1-3/8” thick would harbor a mortise that is about 7/16” wide. A ½” mortise is close enough for me, especially since this matches the chisels that will chop the mortises. If you can perfectly center the mortises, the tenons will be faster and easier to cut, but snug fitting off set tenons will also work.

On one side of the door, should i make three of the four plough cuts removable? Or is there a better way of doing this?

I like the double rabbet for glass. The first rabbet is the deepest and houses the glass panes and is cut to allow for expansion and contraction of the wood while keeping the glass in place. The second rabbet is not as deep. If this second rabbet ends up flush with the pane of glass, a retainer strip can be cut that will rest flush with the face of the door in the second rabbet and overlap the glass to hold the glass in place. Screwing the glass retainer strips in place would make replacing the glass a simple.

I would recommend ¼” thick minimum thickness tempered glass since this is a door. Even this tough glass can break. If it ever breaks, having the ability to easily replace the glass will be appreciated.

It is also, I think, a good idea to allow for at least 1/8” expansion of the wood around the glass (although I would err on the side of caution and allow at least 3/16” for wood expansion). That is the glass should be at least 1/8” narrower and 1/8” shorter than the wooded frame in which the glass sets.

Also, if you have to order glass, most glass suppliers will only guarantee glass dimensions +/- 1/8”. As a result, before cutting wood to accept glass, I find it best to have the glass on hand.

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atilla

8 posts in 427 days


#5 posted 10-23-2016 11:39 PM

Thanks for all the helpful advice. Especially reminding me of expansion and the fact that tempered glass should be purchased before hand because the sizes vary. I often forget about expansion, and when i am not working from plans i leave that out of my work thought process. I will add it in. So are you suggesting 1/8 all around?

I loved the pieces you have made, i checked out your project list. Quite extraordinary hutch and desk.

Since i am rather new to this i am not sure i fully grasp your suggestion about the double rabbet. The glass will sit in the deeper rabbet and then the second rabbet will keep the bottom hidden. If necessary i can add a retainer strip on it. Do you suggest something like this: http://img.diynetwork.com/DIY/2005/11/07/dit337_1ca_lg.jpg
If so i think that might be a great solution for the top and bottom. I see taking the glass and pushing it up into the top slot and then letting it go over the second rabbet and out. But i suspect that the two sides would need to have removable strips so the glass can just pop out. I hope that makes sense, its so hard to put into words what my mind envisions.

Thanks so much for your detailed and thorough guidance.

Atilla

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JBrow

1272 posts in 754 days


#6 posted 10-24-2016 02:09 AM

atilla,

Thank you for the kind words regarding the desk and china hutch.

I would say that a 1/8” wood expansion gap on each side and 1/8” top and bottom would reduce chances that the door rails or stiles would expand and break the glass. This means that the lip that will hold the glass in place should be greater than ¼”. For example, the glass will rest on the bottom rail. That means the bottom and top rails can expand ¼” toward one another before the glass would break. It also means that the lip which hold the glass in place on the top rail must be greater than ¼” to keep the glass from falling out. Likewise the lip that holds the glass in place on the sides should also exceed ¼”. The glass could slide to one side or the other in the door from opening and closing the door.

A groove or double rabbet could be cut into the bottom rail. I suppose you could elect to cut a top rail groove , but in order to slip the glass in place, the top groove would have be especially deep so that the glass can be inserted deep enough in the top groove to clear the lip of the bottom groove. However I could envision this being quite difficult or maybe even possible if the width of the grooves is cut close to the thickness of the glass. My approach would be to avoid the risk and rout a double rabbet in the top rail.

The link you posted is a locking rabbet and different from my earlier idea. The double rabbet (or perhaps more descriptively a stepped rabbet) could be routed on the stiles and the top rail. The double rabbet has the appearance of a step. I am guessing that you may find my clumsy efforts to describe the double rabbet lacking. Therefore I posted a sketch hoping it will add some clarity.

The first rabbet of the double rabbet would become the lip against which the glass will rest. If you go with a 1/8”expansion gap, then a rabbet that is ½” wide cut on the inside face of the door would probably work well. The bottom of the rabbet (the rabbet’s depth) would be where the outside face of the glass would set. Therefore its depth is a design decision; how much wood is desired between the outside face of the door and the outside face of glass or, in other words how far the glass is recessed from the outside face of the door.

The second rabbet is not as deep as the first rabbet and houses the glass retainer strip. If you use ¼” thick glass, then depth of the second rabbet would be ¼” LESS than the depth of the first rabbet. The width of the second rabbet, measured from the shoulder of the first rabbet would be sufficient to allow the retainer strip to be screwed to the door stile or rail; a ½” to 3/4” wide.

The retainer strips, I presume made from walnut to match the doors, would fit in and be secured to the second rabbet. The retainer strip functions to hold the glass in place in the first rabbet. If its thickness matches the depth of the second rabbet, it will set flush with the surface of the door. If its width is the width of the first rabbet + the width of the second rabbet, its edge overlapping the glass and visible through the glass would be flush with the door’s inside (glass side) edge.

The double or stepped rabbet…

Glass Retainer strips are not shown…

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atilla

8 posts in 427 days


#7 posted 10-24-2016 01:45 PM

Wow, i totally get it now. And the look would be perfect. I can try and match up the grain for the retaining strip to match the rest of the pieces and it would be nearly invisible.

I will take pictures of it and report back in a few weeks.

Thanks
Atilla

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