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Another DC and ducting thread.... Need Help

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Forum topic by mrramsey posted 10-19-2016 07:47 PM 874 views 1 time favorited 18 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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mrramsey

33 posts in 435 days


10-19-2016 07:47 PM

Ok guys – I have been beating myself up for the past several days trying to figure this out. First just a brief background before I dive in.

I am converting my 2 car garage into a shared workshop. My wife will still park in there during inclement weather. I have acquired a shop full of tools most of which are on mobile bases. The deal also comes with a Jet DC650 which just will not work for what I want. The items in my mock up are just representations of what I have and not the exact machines. It was more of a “will it all fit” exercise.

Anyway here goes….

I have been reading information all over the place including what Bill Pentz has done. I really like the cyclone machines but they do come at a premium price. I am trying to stay in the $1k range complete. Most all of my tools have a 4” port. I would like to design the system to have a CFM of 600+ at the tool. As best I can tell a 5” main line to the DC would meet this specification. What gets confusing to me is when you reduce the branch to the tool. In my case I would have a 5×4x5 wye wit a 4” blast gate. Then a maximum of a 12’ flex hose to the table saw near the center of the workshop. My worst case SP loss is about 3.75”.

The way I understand it is that I would need a DC that will be able to pull 600+ CFM @ 4”WC. Does this sound right? Space is an obvious concern. I would like to collect as much dust and fines as possible within budget. I suppose on the upside the ducting is minimal so there is some savings there.

In my mockup the DC would be in the corner with one run of 5” duct below the windows with 3-4 wyes where I can connect short runs of 4” flex as needed and possibly a 90 downturn to a floor sweep at the end by the garage door.

I really don’t want to go overhead because of the garage door hardware. Thoughts or suggestions on setting up a system?

-- Mike ~~~ Experience is what you get right after you needed it. ~~~


18 replies so far

View brtech's profile

brtech

1006 posts in 2762 days


#1 posted 10-19-2016 09:46 PM

I don’t really understand how you can hard pipe the DC if you have to move everything out of the way to park. I think you would be better off with something like a 20’ Dust Right expandable flex hose right to the DC. No Wyes, no blast gates, no long runs. Rigid is better than flex, but if you are trading off 20-30’ and two right angles (even wide sweep or two 45s with a short straight section against a much shorter flex, then you probably are well ahead on CFM with the flex.

If you really want 600 CFM at the tool (which, as you know from reading Penz is not enough), I’m not sure that any of the cyclone things is going to work for you at under $1K, but you can try. You probably need a good 2HP to do that, and any of the cheap cyclones are going to kill too much of the airflow. If you want the 700 CFM at the tool, and a separator, then you are right where Penz wants you to be, 5HP. A well designed cyclone, with the air ramp, etc. has much less insertion loss, but those can’t be had at your budget level. Please don’t skimp on the filter. Get a good .5 micron canister filter, no matter what you do for the motor/impeller/separator. If all you have is the one flex, then all you need is a smooth reducer from whatever the inlet on the DC is to 4”. They put the bigger port on the DC so you can run that long main line and branch off at 4” to the tool. Usually, I think they neck down at the Wye from the main line. But you don’t want any of that IMHO.

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pintodeluxe

5468 posts in 2653 days


#2 posted 10-19-2016 10:01 PM

I have a DC650, and just got a Tempest 2 hp cyclone. My two dust collectors are like comparing a wind-up balsa wood plane to a jet engine. I’m wondering if that big cyclone is too much for my shop.
If I had it to do over again, I would take a good look at the Jet or Laguna portable cyclones in the 1-1/2 to 2 hp range. Used with a single tool, they should work great.

-- Willie, Washington "If You Choose Not To Decide, You Still Have Made a Choice" - Rush

View TheDane's profile

TheDane

5334 posts in 3503 days


#3 posted 10-19-2016 11:38 PM

I had a DC-650 … good machine for single tool use. I wouldn’t suggest it for a plumbed shop.

I bought a Laguna 2hp portable cyclone about a year ago … so far it is a great machine.

My shop is about the size of a single-car garage (14’x23’) with a 10’ garage door on one end and builtin cabinets along two walls. There is no way to plumb the shop, so I went with an expandable hose and Rockler Dust Right fittings on each machine. Not ideal … but it works.

-- Gerry -- "I don't plan to ever really grow up ... I'm just going to learn how to act in public!"

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Redoak49

2906 posts in 1828 days


#4 posted 10-20-2016 11:03 AM

You will need a pretty good machine to get over 600 cfm through the 4” port on the machine.

I am getting that but running a 5 hp cyclone. I actually measured the flow through my piped system. I am using 6” pipe and then reduced to 4” and flex to the machine. If interested, you can read the blog which details my measurements.

View mrramsey's profile

mrramsey

33 posts in 435 days


#5 posted 10-20-2016 01:09 PM



You will need a pretty good machine to get over 600 cfm through the 4” port on the machine.

I am getting that but running a 5 hp cyclone. I actually measured the flow through my piped system. I am using 6” pipe and then reduced to 4” and flex to the machine. If interested, you can read the blog which details my measurements.

- Redoak49

Good info Redoak. I really appreciate the work you put into testing.

-- Mike ~~~ Experience is what you get right after you needed it. ~~~

View rwe2156's profile

rwe2156

2716 posts in 1320 days


#6 posted 10-20-2016 01:41 PM

I’ve heard of people run the main line in the attic and just have vertical drops to machines.

-- Everything is a prototype thats why its one of a kind!!

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mrramsey

33 posts in 435 days


#7 posted 10-21-2016 08:54 PM

I am leaning towards a 2HP cyclone at this point. I plan to use 6” 26ga snap lock for the main trunk and 5” for the branch and drops. 5” Blast gates and 5” flex to the tool. Would love to use the Nordfab stuff but that ain’t in the budget. I spoke with the folks at Oneida today and they suggested the V2000 for my shop along with the duct size.

Anyone have experience with the machines below?

Looking at the following:
Oneida 2HP V2000
JET JCDC-2


Grizzly G0440

-- Mike ~~~ Experience is what you get right after you needed it. ~~~

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mrramsey

33 posts in 435 days


#8 posted 10-22-2016 03:19 PM

Well here I go again… The more I think about it I think I am going to just do a mobile DC and connect it directly to my machines. I just have such a limited space at this point. Maybe later on when I get a dedicated stand alone shop I will pursue a ducted system.

After buying tools and renovations money is tight. I would easily hit $2k+ to install a ducted system. That was causing me to reconsider adding heat in the garage. At this point I think I will still be looking at a 1.5 – 2 HP model cyclone without ducting.

-- Mike ~~~ Experience is what you get right after you needed it. ~~~

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TheDane

5334 posts in 3503 days


#9 posted 10-22-2016 06:36 PM

That was causing me to reconsider adding heat in the garage.

Smart move to add heat. I don’t know where you are, but where I live, heat is a must 5 or 6 months out of the year.

-- Gerry -- "I don't plan to ever really grow up ... I'm just going to learn how to act in public!"

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mrramsey

33 posts in 435 days


#10 posted 10-22-2016 09:34 PM


Smart move to add heat. I don t know where you are, but where I live, heat is a must 5 or 6 months out of the year.

How are you liking the performance of your Laguna? Did you go with the C Flex or the P Flex?

-- Mike ~~~ Experience is what you get right after you needed it. ~~~

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TheDane

5334 posts in 3503 days


#11 posted 10-22-2016 10:47 PM

Did you go with the C Flex or the P Flex?

Neither. Mine is the 2hp mobile cyclone, which (I think) is no longer in production.

I am very happy with it … does exactly what I want it to do.

Here is the review I did on it when it first arrived in my shop … http://lumberjocks.com/reviews/6410

-- Gerry -- "I don't plan to ever really grow up ... I'm just going to learn how to act in public!"

View Grumpymike's profile

Grumpymike

2175 posts in 2155 days


#12 posted 10-22-2016 10:51 PM

Back in the day when I was working out of a garage for my shop, and the wife wanted to park in there, I came up with a plan to put 4” PVC along the walls with Y’s and a blast gates to a flex hose at each work station. I have never understood the reason to go to the ceiling … you need too much HP to lift the dust and shavings 8’ ...
Like you, I got caught up in the CFM at the port and the Thien baffles and cycloes all the other stuff people want to sell you that will magically make your shop clean …

Fast forward a bunch of years. In my dedicated wood shop (24’X 48’) I have a HF 2 HP DC that is located at the center of one wall, that way the longest pull is 25’. the duct is 49” AFF and extends either way along the wall with 4 blast gates to dedicated tools. (That height is below the upper cabinets and above the lowers)
Then I have one 4” line that goes to the center of the shop to serve a work station (2 band saws, router table and a drum sander. ... (I have a dedicated shop vac for the planner). Prior to going intp the DC, I have a separator that is nothing more than a 30 gal barrel with the Rockler separator kit.

So here is the bottom line, The dust bin in my Grizzley cabinet saw is always clean and empty, My sanders and band saws put little to no dust in the air and the cost of the whole set up was less than $500 including the duct work.
Each tool has a blast gate so I get the full power of the DC at each tool … I’m one man shop so I never have more tool running or blast gate open at the same time.

you can spend lots pf money on shiny tools, but do they work better??

-- Grumpy old guy, and lookin' good Doin' it. ... Surprise Az.

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mrramsey

33 posts in 435 days


#13 posted 10-23-2016 12:47 PM



Did you go with the C Flex or the P Flex?

Neither. Mine is the 2hp mobile cyclone, which (I think) is no longer in production.

One of the reviews I saw for the new Lagunas indicated that they have an 80% improvement over the previous generation. They certainly look like well made machines. I am trying to decide between the 1.5 hp and 2 hp unit at this point.

-- Mike ~~~ Experience is what you get right after you needed it. ~~~

View TheDane's profile

TheDane

5334 posts in 3503 days


#14 posted 10-23-2016 02:46 PM

One of the reviews I saw for the new Lagunas indicated that they have an 80% improvement over the previous generation. They certainly look like well made machines. I am trying to decide between the 1.5 hp and 2 hp unit at this point.

- mrramsey

Wow … I would like to see that review!

If you have 240-volt service available (or can get it wired in), go with the 2hp. You will never wish you had a less powerful machine.

-- Gerry -- "I don't plan to ever really grow up ... I'm just going to learn how to act in public!"

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mrramsey

33 posts in 435 days


#15 posted 10-23-2016 09:02 PM


Wow … I would like to see that review!

Here it is from ToolMetrix albeit it’s the 1.5 hp model however I would expect the statistics to be similar on the 2 HP model. I still like the grizzly G0440 and G0443 models due to the cyclone design being taller along with an air ramp but I would have to hard pipe my shop to the tune of an extra $600+.

https://youtu.be/dwmzEXeiJp4

-- Mike ~~~ Experience is what you get right after you needed it. ~~~

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