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Forum topic by harlantk posted 09-02-2016 08:35 PM 424 views 0 times favorited 11 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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harlantk

3 posts in 93 days


09-02-2016 08:35 PM

Topic tags/keywords: templates paper stretch template materials question

First let me say hi, my name I go by is Tim, and I am new to LJ forums, though been lurking here for years.
Primarily I am a violin maker, guitars too, but lately working on a few projects for the fun.
Over the years I have used printouts for templates, and never really addressed an issue I kept noticing, of the finished project’s would be a tad bit larger than the design. I began to look at the problem when I decided to cut some gears for a clock project, and alas, it hit me, that the issue was in the paper absorbing moisture from the adhesive, and during the application to the wood, the paper would stretch a bit, especially if using a PVA glue. I tried using clear coat spray and adhesive spray from a can, still having some error in the final work. I figured the paper would stretch some but as things dried, the shrinkage would be the offset, and all would be good.
I realize I am asking the materials to do better than the materials can hold under normal weather and conditions, but it seems I am getting an error that is inconsistent of that, having as much as 2 mm growth over 250 mm, and that is after cure time.
Maybe I am demanding too much from the materials, but thought I could at least ask others if they have dealt with this, and how did they overcome the error?
The thoughts I have in determining a good resolution are the choice of the adhesive, the choice the paper material (Mylar, Parchment, other alternatives), climate control or big bucks to get a printer that prints direct to the wood.
The climate of the work area is 73 degrees,@40% both +- 5 typically.
I would appreciate any thoughts the community may have.

Tim


11 replies so far

View Redoak49's profile

Redoak49

1938 posts in 1449 days


#1 posted 09-02-2016 08:41 PM

I use 3m77 spray adhesive for scroll saw and other things like gears and do not have that issue. I have measured it a clue of times. I also use blue tape on the wood and put pattern over it.

Just as a note, I a l so check my printer to make certain that I am not getting distortion. I use an inkjet and use inkjet paper.

Good luck

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MrUnix

4207 posts in 1659 days


#2 posted 09-02-2016 09:24 PM

3M spray adhesive here as well… 77 is good stuff, but expensive – if you don’t need to glue foam, rubber and other weird stuff, the general purpose #45 is cheaper and works just as well – and I’m sure the other brands do too. Never had any issues with the template changing size. If I print out an 8×10 portrait template (I always put a 2 pixel border around it so I can cut to size, which make placement easier), it comes out exactly 8×10. After application of the glue, it remains 8×10 and fits my plywood blanks perfectly.

Paper is just ordinary off the shelf copier paper and the templates are printed out on a laserjet. I used to put down a layer of packing tape first, but lately have just been applying directly to the wood. To remove, just wipe what’s left of the template with some Mineral spirits, wait 30 seconds or so, and it peels off in one piece easily.

Cheers,
Brad

-- Brad in FL - To be old and wise, you must first be young and stupid

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MadMark

976 posts in 913 days


#3 posted 09-02-2016 09:39 PM

I use rubber cement in the little jar with a brush. That aside any wood pulp paper will stretch when wet. Try a sheet of Tyvek. It’s waterproof, cheap, and shouldn’t stretch at all.

You could get a cheap (<$200) laser to put down your cut marks:

Repeatable and accurate.

M

-- Madmark - Madmark2150@yahoo.com Wiretreefarm.com

View Rick M's profile

Rick M

7907 posts in 1840 days


#4 posted 09-03-2016 02:34 AM

Simplest solution is reduce your print by .008%.
Use less glue.
Switch to spray or stick glue.
Switch to a paper with high rag content.

-- http://thewoodknack.blogspot.com/

View MaurerPower's profile

MaurerPower

12 posts in 110 days


#5 posted 09-03-2016 05:26 AM

Stick glue still has the same problem. I’ve noticed a little stretching in my scroll saw patterns when I use elmers stick glue. Btw crazy art glue sticks don’t stick very well. Like Rick said, try paper with high rag content or maybe the think paper that you would print your resume on.

View JADobson's profile

JADobson

677 posts in 1571 days


#6 posted 09-04-2016 12:58 AM

Use packing tape and tape it down. Punch a few holes in the middle where it doesn’t matter so you have holding power throughout the pattern.

-- James

View harlantk's profile

harlantk

3 posts in 93 days


#7 posted 09-04-2016 12:59 AM

Wow thank you all, for such quick replies here. Definitely some food for thinking here, not being familiar with Tyvek, but think it probably is similar to the Mylar drafting film in application.
I see I should have been a bit more specific, and my focus was more on the pulp products, and the thought Rick gave of trying higher and different rag content is something I should explore for sure. I have not tried the 3M #77 as yet, and shall pick up a can next time I am at the store. I really appreciate the thoughts here, and I will post findings as well as I test materials. I have a project coming up that is 1.5 meters long and the goal will be to come in around +- 0.2 mm.
great forum Community!!
Thank you very much

Tim

View MadMark's profile

MadMark

976 posts in 913 days


#8 posted 09-04-2016 03:23 AM

0.2 mm over 1500 mm? (1 part in 7500!) Are you working with wood? That is an incredibly tight spec (0.013%) that will NOT hold over time …

M

-- Madmark - Madmark2150@yahoo.com Wiretreefarm.com

View harlantk's profile

harlantk

3 posts in 93 days


#9 posted 09-05-2016 04:05 PM

You are correct MadMark, that this will not hold over time let alone climate variations. This expectation is applied to a mould or form, and pushes the limits of the printing device as well. Use of the Mould is then later checked for change due to environment, and if possible adjusting accordingly. The concern here is to find a way to “start” as accurate as possible, then work as accurate to the mould accommodating any difference’s. I am aware that the materials could never possess the rigid accuracy expected, but to incorporate other deficiencies on top of the material issues, has been an issue over the years.
I appreciate your thoughts and taking the time to question this requirement, and the knowledge you are bringing to the issue I am researching here.
I will keep this thread related to the simpler aspect of just the paper creep and the related problems of the material stretch from moisture causing problems.
I ran across a web page showing the use of freezer paper in the printer, then rubbing the ink off directly to the wood, and this might be interesting to try.
Again thank you for the response and the input.

Tim

View Rick M's profile

Rick M

7907 posts in 1840 days


#10 posted 09-05-2016 09:33 PM

Correction to my post, it should have read:
”...reduce your print by .8%.”
That’s what I get for posting late evening.

-- http://thewoodknack.blogspot.com/

View MrRon's profile

MrRon

3926 posts in 2704 days


#11 posted 09-06-2016 11:53 PM

You can try a silk screen stencil and just print the image on the wood; Very accurate, but more effort.

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