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Forum topic by poopiekat posted 06-07-2010 03:32 PM 1702 views 0 times favorited 19 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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4355 posts in 3731 days

06-07-2010 03:32 PM

Well.. okay, it’s been a slow weekend at LJs, so I thought I’d share a rather important news clip from CBS news.
I’m already aware that this thread is totally off-topic, and expect a few anti-intellectuals to scold me for it. But, I’ll bet that most of you find this as fascinating as I did, so click and enjoy:

Ooops, I forgot, please disregard the shampoo commercial at the beginning…

-- Einstein: "The intuitive mind is a sacred gift, and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift." I'm Poopiekat!!

19 replies so far

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Gene Howe

10479 posts in 3426 days

#1 posted 06-07-2010 04:06 PM

Now, that’s scary!

-- Gene 'The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him.' G. K. Chesterton

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4355 posts in 3731 days

#2 posted 06-07-2010 04:13 PM

Yeah, Gene, totally beyond our ability to monitor our personal info, being handled who knows who out there…

-- Einstein: "The intuitive mind is a sacred gift, and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift." I'm Poopiekat!!

View mtnwild's profile


3474 posts in 3524 days

#3 posted 06-07-2010 04:20 PM

Verrry interesting.

One more thing to add to my list of fears.

Have to go make something in the shop and pretend all is well…...............................

-- mtnwild (Jack), It's not what you see, it's how you see it.

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117091 posts in 3574 days

#4 posted 06-07-2010 04:21 PM

Thanks for sharing

-- wood crafting & woodworking classes

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2570 posts in 3301 days

#5 posted 06-07-2010 04:24 PM


-- Ohh mann...pancakes and boobies...I'll bet that's what Heaven is like! ♣ ♣ ♣ ♣

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Gene Howe

10479 posts in 3426 days

#6 posted 06-07-2010 04:28 PM

Think of the government offices that you must do business with. VA, SS, DOT, P&Z, etc…
How often do these departments junk their copiers? If one is only interested in the HDs, just buy them at junk prices or govt. auctions.

-- Gene 'The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him.' G. K. Chesterton

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2850 posts in 3134 days

#7 posted 06-07-2010 04:42 PM

I don’t think most of these places buy copiers most of them like the company I work for lease them with a maintenance contract. Just like most things these days turn your head until it gets real bad then throw money at the problem.

-- Luke 23: 42-43

View Rick's profile


9596 posts in 3030 days

#8 posted 06-08-2010 07:51 AM

Excuse my ignorance but why do they have Hard Drives in Copiers in the first place? Are the HD’s needed to operate the Copier? Is it so that a Company can Monitor what’s being done on their Copiers?

If these Companies ARE aware that there is a HD that copies everything why don’t they Clean them off before Disposing of the machine? Purchased or Leased? OR! Are they NOT aware there’s one on there?

The reason for that question is obvious, Isn’t it? What Company, Hospital, Government Office, Police Force, etc. would Deliberately let all that PRIVATE information end up, who knows where??

If they DO KNOW and let the machine go with all that PRIVATE Information on there can they not be held Liable for releasing PRIVATE Information without the “Individuals Consent”?

This really PISSES me off! How many times have any of us here gone to an “Office Supply Store”, Public Library, Convenience Store, Wherever and made Copies? Totally UNAWARE that this might be happening to ANYTHING WE Copy??

I have two small Companies. One is an Investment Company. My Clients are people that I’ve known for 20/30 Years. TOTAL TRUST was built up over those years! Some of them are worth MEGA BUCKS. I’ve copied all kinds of THEIR INFO in the Past. Net Worth, Bank Statements, Investment Statements, so on so forth.

Two years ago I decide that I SHOULDN’T be using “Public Copiers” for this Info. Why? I just felt Uneasy about doing so. I bought my own Copier.

I put in place a Policy that WE (All of them) would no longer converse or transfer ANY Documents by e-mail because of something I was told and shown by a Computer expert. INTERCEPTING ANYONES e-mails he wanted to hack into. Now all communication is done by Courier, Personal Meetings, or Phone.

I’m not even going to get into how much Personal Info is available on the “www” if you know how to access, or find, the 30 or 40 Sites that gather this stuff!

Sorry Guys but when does this STOP! Is ANYBODY monitoring this kind of Invasion into OUR Private Lives?

poopiekat: I’m sure as hell not going to scold you for Posting this!! Maybe if enough people start exposing this, what I consider to be Totally Illegal Disemination of PRIVATE INFORMATION, something MIGHT Happen (Yes. I know. Dream on!) PHHFFTT!!!!!!!!!!


PS: The Commercial is now ReMax …LOL.. & THANK YOU for Posting this!!

-- LIFE is what happens when you're planning on doing Other Things!

View Eagle1's profile


2066 posts in 3062 days

#9 posted 06-08-2010 12:49 PM

Yes hard drives are being used for the programs to run the copiers. They are getting more and more systificated in what the do. Companys are demanding that due to space to run there bussiness and cost in otherways. it seems to e that the companys that sell the copiers should let them know that is how the stuff works,and they can deal with it, ot let the company service it. But the problem with that is, the people servicing the machine can get to the same data while there in there, they have all the techno there to do it. It you think about if someone wants your info there is a way to get it. Because there is someone that created the techno. That siad it alos can happen to anyone that has there website. They can be hacked. If someone wants the info bad enough. Thats why I’m in the process of setting up my website. ( it’s not a plug for my site) But I’m doing it from my own system for that reason I don’t like paying for the space to store my data, ( once again there another way to get to your info). I know that not everyone hace the capability to do it by them selves on there own servers. We all don’t know how to do that. But the ones that do know how to do have more control of there own security. Most hacking is done by piggy backing a link that you click on or by email that you get. The Melissa virus is the biggest on that most every one knows about. It was done by piggy backing someones email, them the program that was wrote, was set up to send out email to everyone on your email list and so on. That is how the biggerst way it is done. Some people just do it because they know that they can. It is very unfornatly that these things happen but it does. I tell people not to open a email that you don’t know the sender, but then you run into the same problem how are you going to get new business. It’s just a hugh circle, all we can do is to do what we can, and store anything that we know we don’t want anyone getting ahold of back it on another platform mainly a seperate hard drive that plugs into your system only when you want to use it or on a cd or dvd.

-- Tim, Missouri ....Inside every older person is a younger person wondering what the heck happened

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338 posts in 3010 days

#10 posted 06-08-2010 06:06 PM

Copiers now-a-days can fax, email, copy and who knows what else. Who knew that the data was stored longer than the operation took to complete? SCAAAARRRY! Glad I have a scanner/fax/printer at home. No need to use one on my own. Now just have to be worried about every business I deal with instead. Sigh.

-- Mike - Antero's Urban Wood Designs

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742 posts in 3664 days

#11 posted 06-08-2010 07:43 PM

People don’t know what they don’t want to know. All one can do is try to stay as vigilant as possible and protect what you can, even thought most attempts are in vain. If the right people want your information, they will get it.

As far as why they are even in copiers, I will save that for another forum I frequent.

I will say that fear is an excellent tool for manipulation. Any “investigative” news reports you see on a main stream news outlet are carefully crafted and created to produce a specific outcome. Nothing gets exposed unless someone wants it to be.

-- Doubt kills more dreams than failure.

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4355 posts in 3731 days

#12 posted 06-08-2010 09:28 PM

Thanks for all the great replies! I just had to share this, I had no idea we were so vulnerable to identity theft, despite whatever we personally do to protect ourselves. The industry should be doing more. Though I suppose that modern copiers need an operating system in order to function, the reason why it should retain images at all is the big mystery to me.

-- Einstein: "The intuitive mind is a sacred gift, and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift." I'm Poopiekat!!

View HeirloomWoodworking's profile


238 posts in 3737 days

#13 posted 06-08-2010 10:24 PM

Fellow Lumberjocks let me clear some of this up, and hopefully relieve some of your angst and fears…

I have been in the copier industry for 23+ years now. Like all technologies, there has been tremendous growth in my field in that period of time.

The Digital Print Process
At its inception the copy process used what has become know as an analog print system. A light iluminated your original. The reflected light from the original, bounced across a couple mirrors, through a lens, across a couple more mirrors and reflected onto a rotating photographic element (or drum) which then created an image capable of being placed upon paper. If you wanted another copy of the same original, the process had to be repeated over and over again. A very mechanical reliant process.

For the past ten years or so, copiers have primarily used what is know as a digital printing process, where your originals are scanned by a light sensitive device know as a Charged Coupled Device (or CCD). The CCD changes the reflected image into a stream of data bits (1’s and 0’s). This data stream is then gathered into a data file which is an electronic representation of your original page.

The data file is stored in the computer memory (hard drive or other memory structure) and the machine uses this data file, in conjunction with a laser print head to “write” a reproduction of the original upon a rotating photographic element, again creating a printable replica of the original.

If you wanted another copy of the original the machine simply had to write the data a second, third, fourth or four thousandth time upon the drum. The more pages the more data, the more data the large data storage requirements. This is why modern copiers have a hard drive (ps. you small desktop machines probably do not have a “hard drive, but instead use integrated memory chips). This memory usage is short term, and the data is destroyed when the printed page is done being created.

Don’t Worry Be Happy
In my professional opinion…....don’t sweat it!

Think for a minute about the designers of these machines. Who do they want to sell this equipment to? mom and pop? small time operations? NO big business and government installations are their target markets.

Security of the scanned image is a HUGE selling point in my industry. If you cannot prove to prospective customers that their data is safe, then they are not going to trust you with it. Manufacurer’s sales staffs are not going to win any government contracts, unless your product passes their secuity protocols. Thus the equipment has been designed with built in security measures.

So…...EVERY copier manufacture that I know of has responded to this fear, by making machines that completely erase all forms of image data from memory after completion of a print job (the company that I represent overwrites the memory 4 times at the end of a print job) and/or provide the technician (and user) software utlities to securely manage their data.

As an industry insider I very strongly feel that you/our data is being properly cared for and that this is a non-issue. I cannot speak about all makes and manufacturing techniques, but I am confident about the equipment that I personally stake my reputation and future of my family upon everyday.

Data that is Stored
Now, bear in mind that the modern copier is what is know as an MFP (or Multi-Functional Printer). The digital print process lends itself to be quite easily adapted into a variety of applications. Printer, scanner, fax, copier, and STORAGE.

A great number of my clients now use their MFP’s as scanners, and in turn (at least temporarily) store that scanned data in the copier memory, until it can be manually placed into an electronic file system inside their network storage system. These scanned images are stored on purpose for future usage.

These are not copies, or prints…they are scans so of course we need to save the data, that is what a scanner does!!!!

Again, manuafactures give the user and the technician a variety of software tools to securely remove all traces of the data from the memory of their MFPs when they are complete with their appointed tasks.

Caution not Fear
I have seen these media reports designed to scare the pants off the common citizen. I have read the industry papers that have been written by the coporations that manufacure the equipment. I have provided my clients with documentation that validates the security of their sensitive data.

People…is it blown way out of porportion and over hyped. When you take your tax return into the local copy shop to be copied, do not fear. The electronic image is being destroyed in the memory of their copier when your copy job is completed.

Is it possible for abuse of this data? Sure…but tell me friends, what electronic media is not or could not be subject to a security breach by unscrupulous individuals? you cell phone, mp3 player, your vehicles computer, your digital camera, handheld gps, PC’s, or even the computer in your microwave oven.

All electronic media is capable of being abused….just use common sense…no different than when we are all working in the shop…..I am not scared of my tablesaw, but I have enough respect for its possible dangers to know that the possibility exists that, if used improperly (without safeguards) I can get hurt.

Trevor Premer

-- Trevor Premer Head Termite and Servant to the Queen - Heirloom Woodworking

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9596 posts in 3030 days

#14 posted 06-09-2010 05:09 AM

rhett: “As far as why they are even in copiers, I will save that for another forum I frequent.”

Why Totally Private Information is left in COPIERS is the reason this thread was started and why this is all so disturbing! So. Why not let us in on it, if you know why. PLEASE!

“If the right people want your information, they will get it.” The RIGHT people???? As far as the FEAR, MANIPULATION, Carefully Crafted, Specific Outcome and the rest of that goes, well …I guess we are all entitled to our Opinion.

Trevor: With All Due Respect. I read your post a couple of times. Are you saying that all Companies, Government. etc. KNOW that ALL the data they have ever put on their Copier HAS/WAS copied to a HARD DRIVE that they are FULLY aware exists on their machine? That they have and supposedly use this Knowdelge to CLEAN OFF that Hard Drive whenever they want to?

I can appreciate a Companies/Governments desire to keep all their Information Confidential when they are USING the Copier. Do they erase the HARD DRIVE in Totallity when they dispose of the Copier?

It would, in my opinion be shear Stupidity for more than one reason if a Company turned in, sold, lease ran out, or otherwise disposed of their Copiers with ANY INFORMATION remaining on the HARD DRIVE, be it theirs or their clients, customers, Patients etc. “IF” they knew it was ALL still sitting there in Memory on a Hard Drive.

So. Is the Information on that News program, a bunch of False, Made Up, Hype as suggested by “rhett”? ALL the information they showed that was left on the Copiers/Hard Drives they purchased, then analyzed, and exposed from various sources something they made up?

The OTHER Comparables, ways of getting info, electronic gadgets, other ways of exposing our Personal information, etc etc etc is something I agree with BUT I’d like to try and stick to the Topic at Hand.

I guess the BASIC TOPIC and QUESTION here is “Do COPIERS with HARD DRIVES leave the Original Users Hands and make there there way to third parties/second users with INFORMATION left INTACT on the HARD DRIVES, put there by the Original User?

That’s it. This is almost getting Boring. BUT!! It just seems to me to be ANOTHER way to Invade/Steal OUR Personal Information.

-- LIFE is what happens when you're planning on doing Other Things!

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4355 posts in 3731 days

#15 posted 06-09-2010 03:14 PM

So, Trevor, just say that it isn’t possible for somebody to buy a cheep used copier and use free de-cryption software to gain 18,000 images stored inside it, like the CBS consultant did. Were they lying, or what? With you being in the copier business for 23 years, your rebuttal sounded more like spin than counterpoint. You’d be the person I’d look to to say it ain’t so… but you didn’t….Though I do appreciate the technical details you provided.

-- Einstein: "The intuitive mind is a sacred gift, and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift." I'm Poopiekat!!

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