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Keyed pulley, smooth shaft??

9K views 38 replies 11 participants last post by  bigblockyeti 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
Hello,

I recently picked up this jointer http://lumberjocks.com/topics/154282 for free. One of the catches was that it didn't have a motor. I've been on the hunt for a 1.5 to 2 hp motor for 120v. I don't have 220 in the garage.

Today I picked up a 1.5 motor off of CL for $50. It can be wired for either 120/220v. The owner had purchased it recently for a hot tub, but his pump failed.

Since it was attached to a pump it has a threaded end. The shaft itself looks to be 5/8, but it's smooth.

I'm wondering what my options are for attaching a keyed pulley to the shaft? I've seen flattening one side of the shaft and doing a set screw, putting a dimple on the shaft for a set screw, or just taking it to a machine shop to get a key way slot machines into it. Obviously the last option is the best, I'm just wondering if anyone else has any other ideas/techniques?

I'll post a pic of the motor in a bit for reference.

Any help would be awesome.

Thank you.

Derrick
 
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#2 ·
I am going through the same thing, I picked up 5 3hp pool pump motors from my buddy. I only have 1 that has a shaft over 1/2 inch though. Be aware that pool pump motors are not meant to have a side load. I have seen where guys will replace them with side load rated bearings. I am considering cutting the threaded end off and keying it with an angle grinder. Matthias wandel and John heisz have done it this way for their homemade tools. If your bearing seats are cast into the impeller outshaft housing you have to trim it up to get the pulley closer to the bearing. post some pics and good luck
 
#3 ·
Sounds like the wrong motor/bearings for a pulley and a belt drive. Silk purse out of a sows ear. Good luck, Cheaper/free is not always better. Live and learn.
Motor shafts where the key way slot would be are usually harden, I dont know about a threaded pool pump, if is it whould hard/expesive to have a key way slot cut into it.
 
#4 · (Edited by Moderator)
I am going through the same thing, I picked up 5 3hp pool pump motors from my buddy. I only have 1 that has a shaft over 1/2 inch though. Be aware that pool pump motors are not meant to have a side load. I have seen where guys will replace them with side load rated bearings. I am considering cutting the threaded end off and keying it with an angle grinder. Matthias wandel and John heisz have done it this way for their homemade tools. If your bearing seats are cast into the impeller outshaft housing you have to trim it up to get the pulley closer to the bearing. post some pics and good luck

- DirtyMike
Thanks for the heads up on the bearings. I'll get it pulled apart and see what I have.

I'll also take a look at woodgears to see if there are examples of the keyway slots being cut.

Sounds like the wrong motor/bearings for a pulley and a belt drive. Silk purse out of a sows ear. Good luck, Cheaper/free is not always better. Live and learn.
Motor shafts where the key way slot would be are usually harden, I dont know about a threaded pool pump, if is it whould hard/expesive to have a key way slot cut into it.

- nightguy
Thanks for the advice. The motor might not be ideal, but I can't be the first person to ever attempt something like this. If the cost of using what I have is going to be ridiculous, I'll just cut my loss and move on. I'm sure I can throw the motor back on CL. If the fix is something similar to what DirtyMike described, I don't see that as too big of a deal.
 
#7 ·
It is very (very) unlikely you will need to upgrade the bearings on that motor to handle the radial load that a belt drive will subject them to. While the original design generated little radial force, manufacturers don't go out of their way to install smaller bearings until you start dealing with large motors, not consumer stuff. Grinding a flat on the side might not be ideal, but it will work and reliably for a long time if the pulley fits the shaft well.
 
#8 · (Edited by Moderator)
What BBYeti said ^^^^

I have an almost unlimited supply of those motors for free… My BIL has a pool service company, and like most pool service companies, they will replace a bad motor rather than attempt to fix it (faster, easier and larger profit). For 98% of them, it's either the bearings that have gone bad (causing the motor to squeal) or a bad start capacitor. They ship out the old motors by the pallet load as scrap metal, and I can rummage through them all I want to see if there is anything worth while to snag. Can't remember the last time I actually had to BUY a start capacitor :)

Point is, the bearings in those motors are standard 62xx series deep groove radial ball bearings. Exact same bearings in just about every other electric motor you will find on a typical wood working machine. They can certainly be used to power a jointer… but they are much longer than a more traditional motor, and as you have noticed, they have a threaded end to engage the impeller rather than a more common keyway/setscrew arrangement. While a keyway could be machined into the shaft, it would be cheaper and easier to just grind a flat.

Cheers,
Brad

PS: Those motors are not reversible, so pay attention to how you mount it. A jointer running backwards isn't going to do you much good :)
 
#9 ·
I am going through the same thing, I picked up 5 3hp pool pump motors from my buddy. I only have 1 that has a shaft over 1/2 inch though. Be aware that pool pump motors are not meant to have a side load. I have seen where guys will replace them with side load rated bearings. I am considering cutting the threaded end off and keying it with an angle grinder. Matthias wandel and John heisz have done it this way for their homemade tools. If your bearing seats are cast into the impeller outshaft housing you have to trim it up to get the pulley closer to the bearing. post some pics and good luck

- DirtyMike
I found this on woodgears http://woodgears.ca/strip_sander/
Towards the bottom of the article he talks about grinding a keyway. Is that similar to what you're talking about?
 
#10 ·
It is very (very) unlikely you will need to upgrade the bearings on that motor to handle the radial load that a belt drive will subject them to. While the original design generated little radial force, manufacturers don t go out of their way to install smaller bearings until you start dealing with large motors, not consumer stuff. Grinding a flat on the side might not be ideal, but it will work and reliably for a long time if the pulley fits the shaft well.

- bigblockyeti
What BBYeti said ^^^^

I have an almost unlimited supply of those motors for free… My BIL has a pool service company, and like most pool service companies, they will replace a bad motor rather than attempt to fix it (faster, easier and larger profit). For 98% of them, it s either the bearings that have gone bad (causing the motor to squeal) or a bad start capacitor. They ship out the old motors by the pallet load as scrap metal, and I can rummage through them all I want to see if there is anything worth while to snag. Can t remember the last time I actually had to BUY a start capacitor :)

Point is, the bearings in those motors are standard 62xx series deep groove radial ball bearings. Exact same bearings in just about every other electric motor you will find on a typical wood working machine. They can certainly be used to power a jointer… but they are much longer than a more traditional motor, and as you have noticed, they have a threaded end to engage the impeller rather than a more common keyway/setscrew arrangement. While a keyway could be machined into the shaft, it would be cheaper and easier to just grind a flat.

Cheers,
Brad

- MrUnix
Well, these are great answers. Thank you guys!!
I at least want to look into bearings just for knowledge. It would be nice to at least know what I have, if/when it comes time to replace.

Right now it looks like I have ball bearings on the pulley side of the shaft, and I'm not sure what kind of bearing it is on the opposite end. It's not ball or tapered roller. It looks fixed, and the shaft just rotates inside of it. Not sure how to better describe it.

Looking at different articles, I swear I've seen those deep groove radial ball bearings on both sides of the shaft. Am I wrong in thinking that's a thing? Is that something worth looking into?

Again. Thank everyone for all of the help!
 
#11 · (Edited by Moderator)
It is possible that it has a bronze sleeve bearing at the back end (end where the electric hooks up), but that is unusual as they need to be oiled every now and then - and just TRY to get a pool owner to go out every few months to put a couple of drops of oil in their motor! If it does, check for an oil fill hole somewhere on the end bell.

Cheers,
Brad
 
#12 ·
It is possible that it has a bronze sleeve bearing at the back end (end where the electric hooks up), but that is unusual as they need to be oiled every now and then - and just TRY to get a pool owner to go out every few months to put a couple of drops of oil in their motor! If it does, check for an oil fill hole somewhere on the end bell.

Cheers,
Brad

- MrUnix
Watch Clock Metal Wood Fashion accessory


Maybe like this little guy right here?
 

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#13 · (Edited by Moderator)
Maybe like this little guy right here?
- derrick3636
There you go! Use a good non-detergent 20W oil (3-in-1 makes an electric motor specific oil that you can find in the borg). There should be (usually) some felt packing around the sleeve bearing that absorbs the oil and distributes it evenly over time. If you already have the motor open, it might not be a bad idea to pull the felt, clean it good in a solvent, and re-saturate before you re-assemble the motor. Those things are dirt magnets and get really nasty dirty over time, and the motor you have is pretty old.

Cheers,
Brad

PS: Check the sleeve bearing and shaft for wear and damage… hopefully they are fine, as it's a bugger to press out those things.
 
#14 ·
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Here s the motor. I took everything apart. I haven t located numbers on the bearings yet, so I can upgrade, but I ll keep looking. Everything looks to be in good shape.

- derrick3636
In your 4th pic there is a dimple on the shaft, it might be a good spot to anchor a pulley with a cone head set screw if that spot works laterally to align with the cutter head pulley.
 

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#15 ·
Maybe like this little guy right here?
- derrick3636

There you go! Use a good non-detergent 20W oil (3-in-1 makes an electric motor specific oil that you can find in the borg). There should be (usually) some felt packing around the sleeve bearing that absorbs the oil and distributes it evenly over time. If you already have the motor open, it might not be a bad idea to pull the felt, clean it good in a solvent, and re-saturate before you re-assemble the motor. Those things are dirt magnets and get really nasty dirty over time, and the motor you have is pretty old.

Cheers,
Brad

PS: Check the sleeve bearing and shaft for wear and damage… hopefully they are fine, as it s a bugger to press out those things.

- MrUnix
I'll take a look at those better. Nothing looked damaged with my initial inspection.
So now that there's a better idea as to what I have, is there any reason I shouldn't use this motor? Of course I still need to get the pulley figured out, but there are a ton of resources out there for those.

In your 4th pic there is a dimple on the shaft, it might be a good spot to anchor a pulley with a cone head set screw if that spot works laterally to align with the cutter head pulley.

- nightguy
I noticed that. Ill look into that kind of set screw. Are you talking about using that dimple and a set screw along with grinding a flat spot on a different side of the shaft and using another flat bottom set screw?

The pulley that came with the jointer had 2 holes for set screws that are 90* apart. This pulley won't work with the current motor, but if this is what you're talking about I'll have a better idea what to look for.
 
#17 · (Edited by Moderator)
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Just a small update. I'm going to try the grinding a flat spot method first. The new pulley came in. I took a little off with a file first. I figured a lot could go wrong in a short amount of time with an angle grinder, so I opted for the slower approach.

The pulley fits snug, but that's just me testing it by hand. Hopefully I can mount it, wire up a switch, and run it in the jointer by this weekend.
 

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#20 ·
Split tapered bore bushing type pulleys don t need a key way. That s the solution you want.

- rick1955
I will have to google those to see what you're talking about. Thank you for the recommendation.
How many cuts per minute are you sizing the pulley for?

- WhyMe
I'm just keeping it at what it was when I received it. The jointer came with a 2.55in pulley on the motor and the cutterhead. The motor itself is 3450rpm. I'll just keep it the same for now.
 
#22 · (Edited by Moderator)
What am I missing? The shaft has a dimple for a grub screw. The pulley has spot for a grub screw. Why are you grinding the shaft?

- Rick M.
You're not missing anything. Another member mentioned the same thing. I was basing my original question off of which type of set scree that came with the pulley. At the time, I wasn't aware those types of set screws existed. I just saw the one I had with a flat bottom, and was worried about how well it would stop the pulley from spinning on the shaft. I should've paid better attention.

Turns out that it wasn't that big of a deal. I filed a flat spot on the shaft, and the pulley went on just fine. I was able to wire up the switch and motor yesterday, and spin the cutterhead for the first time. Once I got the tensioner figured out, everything ran smoothly. Now I just have to learn how to install/set the knives, so I can give it a real test.
 
#23 ·
How many cuts per minute are you sizing the pulley for?

- WhyMe

I m just keeping it at what it was when I received it. The jointer came with a 2.55in pulley on the motor and the cutterhead. The motor itself is 3450rpm. I ll just keep it the same for now.

- derrick3636
I'm surprised the original setup has the same size pulley on both the motor and cutter. That will give you about 10,350 CPM with a 3450 RPM motor. I think 13,000 to 14,000 CPM will produce a cleaner cut. I assume the cutter is 3 blade.
 
#24 ·
How many cuts per minute are you sizing the pulley for?

- WhyMe

I m just keeping it at what it was when I received it. The jointer came with a 2.55in pulley on the motor and the cutterhead. The motor itself is 3450rpm. I ll just keep it the same for now.

- derrick3636

I m surprised the original setup has the same size pulley on both the motor and cutter. That will give you about 10,350 CPM with a 3450 RPM motor. I think 13,000 to 14,000 CPM will produce a cleaner cut. I assume the cutter is 3 blade.

- WhyMe
It is a 3 blade. You know what. Let me double check the sizes. I'll size them up again here in a bit.
 
#25 ·
I m surprised the original setup has the same size pulley on both the motor and cutter. That will give you about 10,350 CPM with a 3450 RPM motor. I think 13,000 to 14,000 CPM will produce a cleaner cut. I assume the cutter is 3 blade.

- WhyMe
Well it does appear that another(thankfully inexpensive) mistake was made on my part. The pulleys are the same size. The manual doesn't say much, but there are different part numbers for the separate pulleys.

I'm guessing the original owner gave me a pulley off of something else when I picked up the jointer. He gave me a couple bags of parts along with the jointer. I think he just found stuff laying around his shop. If that's the case, no harm no foul.

So it appears in in the market for a larger drive pulley. I know there is some math involved on this one. If the driven pulley is 2.55in, how much larger of a drive pulley should I be looking for?

Surplus Center lists: 2.75, 2.95, 3.15, 3.35, 3.55, and 3.95 as the next sizes up on a 5/8 shaft. Will any of those get me to that 13k to 14k speed you're talking about?

Just so I can gain some more knowledge, what is the math involved in determining that speed? That seems like a handy bit of info that'll be useful in the future.

Thank you for catching my mistakes and for the help!!

Derrick
 
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