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Keyed pulley, smooth shaft??

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Forum topic by derrick3636 posted 08-29-2016 01:31 AM 726 views 0 times favorited 38 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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derrick3636

72 posts in 603 days


08-29-2016 01:31 AM

Hello,

I recently picked up this jointer http://lumberjocks.com/topics/154282 for free. One of the catches was that it didn’t have a motor. I’ve been on the hunt for a 1.5 to 2 hp motor for 120v. I don’t have 220 in the garage.

Today I picked up a 1.5 motor off of CL for $50. It can be wired for either 120/220v. The owner had purchased it recently for a hot tub, but his pump failed.

Since it was attached to a pump it has a threaded end. The shaft itself looks to be 5/8, but it’s smooth.

I’m wondering what my options are for attaching a keyed pulley to the shaft? I’ve seen flattening one side of the shaft and doing a set screw, putting a dimple on the shaft for a set screw, or just taking it to a machine shop to get a key way slot machines into it. Obviously the last option is the best, I’m just wondering if anyone else has any other ideas/techniques?

I’ll post a pic of the motor in a bit for reference.

Any help would be awesome.

Thank you.

Derrick


38 replies so far

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DirtyMike

461 posts in 367 days


#1 posted 08-29-2016 04:24 AM

I am going through the same thing, I picked up 5 3hp pool pump motors from my buddy. I only have 1 that has a shaft over 1/2 inch though. Be aware that pool pump motors are not meant to have a side load. I have seen where guys will replace them with side load rated bearings. I am considering cutting the threaded end off and keying it with an angle grinder. Matthias wandel and John heisz have done it this way for their homemade tools. If your bearing seats are cast into the impeller outshaft housing you have to trim it up to get the pulley closer to the bearing. post some pics and good luck

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nightguy

213 posts in 127 days


#2 posted 08-29-2016 04:35 AM

Sounds like the wrong motor/bearings for a pulley and a belt drive. Silk purse out of a sows ear. Good luck, Cheaper/free is not always better. Live and learn.
Motor shafts where the key way slot would be are usually harden, I dont know about a threaded pool pump, if is it whould hard/expesive to have a key way slot cut into it.

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derrick3636

72 posts in 603 days


#3 posted 08-29-2016 01:49 PM


I am going through the same thing, I picked up 5 3hp pool pump motors from my buddy. I only have 1 that has a shaft over 1/2 inch though. Be aware that pool pump motors are not meant to have a side load. I have seen where guys will replace them with side load rated bearings. I am considering cutting the threaded end off and keying it with an angle grinder. Matthias wandel and John heisz have done it this way for their homemade tools. If your bearing seats are cast into the impeller outshaft housing you have to trim it up to get the pulley closer to the bearing. post some pics and good luck

- DirtyMike


Thanks for the heads up on the bearings. I’ll get it pulled apart and see what I have.

I’ll also take a look at woodgears to see if there are examples of the keyway slots being cut.


Sounds like the wrong motor/bearings for a pulley and a belt drive. Silk purse out of a sows ear. Good luck, Cheaper/free is not always better. Live and learn.
Motor shafts where the key way slot would be are usually harden, I dont know about a threaded pool pump, if is it whould hard/expesive to have a key way slot cut into it.

- nightguy

Thanks for the advice. The motor might not be ideal, but I can’t be the first person to ever attempt something like this. If the cost of using what I have is going to be ridiculous, I’ll just cut my loss and move on. I’m sure I can throw the motor back on CL. If the fix is something similar to what DirtyMike described, I don’t see that as too big of a deal.

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derrick3636

72 posts in 603 days


#4 posted 08-29-2016 03:49 PM

Here’s the motor. I took everything apart. I haven’t located numbers on the bearings yet, so I can upgrade, but I’ll keep looking. Everything looks to be in good shape.

View bobasaurus's profile

bobasaurus

2672 posts in 2649 days


#5 posted 08-29-2016 05:43 PM

I suppose you could grind a flat into the round portion of the shaft, then just use a standard set screw pulley (you can buy them online). Or try to find an adapter for the threaded section somehow.

-- Allen, Colorado

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bigblockyeti

3668 posts in 1185 days


#6 posted 08-29-2016 08:16 PM

It is very (very) unlikely you will need to upgrade the bearings on that motor to handle the radial load that a belt drive will subject them to. While the original design generated little radial force, manufacturers don’t go out of their way to install smaller bearings until you start dealing with large motors, not consumer stuff. Grinding a flat on the side might not be ideal, but it will work and reliably for a long time if the pulley fits the shaft well.

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MrUnix

4230 posts in 1664 days


#7 posted 08-29-2016 08:45 PM

What BBYeti said ^^^^

I have an almost unlimited supply of those motors for free… My BIL has a pool service company, and like most pool service companies, they will replace a bad motor rather than attempt to fix it (faster, easier and larger profit). For 98% of them, it’s either the bearings that have gone bad (causing the motor to squeal) or a bad start capacitor. They ship out the old motors by the pallet load as scrap metal, and I can rummage through them all I want to see if there is anything worth while to snag. Can’t remember the last time I actually had to BUY a start capacitor :)

Point is, the bearings in those motors are standard 62xx series deep groove radial ball bearings. Exact same bearings in just about every other electric motor you will find on a typical wood working machine. They can certainly be used to power a jointer… but they are much longer than a more traditional motor, and as you have noticed, they have a threaded end to engage the impeller rather than a more common keyway/setscrew arrangement. While a keyway could be machined into the shaft, it would be cheaper and easier to just grind a flat.

Cheers,
Brad

PS: Those motors are not reversible, so pay attention to how you mount it. A jointer running backwards isn’t going to do you much good :)

-- Brad in FL - To be old and wise, you must first be young and stupid

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derrick3636

72 posts in 603 days


#8 posted 08-29-2016 08:47 PM



I am going through the same thing, I picked up 5 3hp pool pump motors from my buddy. I only have 1 that has a shaft over 1/2 inch though. Be aware that pool pump motors are not meant to have a side load. I have seen where guys will replace them with side load rated bearings. I am considering cutting the threaded end off and keying it with an angle grinder. Matthias wandel and John heisz have done it this way for their homemade tools. If your bearing seats are cast into the impeller outshaft housing you have to trim it up to get the pulley closer to the bearing. post some pics and good luck

- DirtyMike

I found this on woodgears http://woodgears.ca/strip_sander/
Towards the bottom of the article he talks about grinding a keyway. Is that similar to what you’re talking about?

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derrick3636

72 posts in 603 days


#9 posted 08-29-2016 09:45 PM



It is very (very) unlikely you will need to upgrade the bearings on that motor to handle the radial load that a belt drive will subject them to. While the original design generated little radial force, manufacturers don t go out of their way to install smaller bearings until you start dealing with large motors, not consumer stuff. Grinding a flat on the side might not be ideal, but it will work and reliably for a long time if the pulley fits the shaft well.

- bigblockyeti


What BBYeti said ^^^^

I have an almost unlimited supply of those motors for free… My BIL has a pool service company, and like most pool service companies, they will replace a bad motor rather than attempt to fix it (faster, easier and larger profit). For 98% of them, it s either the bearings that have gone bad (causing the motor to squeal) or a bad start capacitor. They ship out the old motors by the pallet load as scrap metal, and I can rummage through them all I want to see if there is anything worth while to snag. Can t remember the last time I actually had to BUY a start capacitor :)

Point is, the bearings in those motors are standard 62xx series deep groove radial ball bearings. Exact same bearings in just about every other electric motor you will find on a typical wood working machine. They can certainly be used to power a jointer… but they are much longer than a more traditional motor, and as you have noticed, they have a threaded end to engage the impeller rather than a more common keyway/setscrew arrangement. While a keyway could be machined into the shaft, it would be cheaper and easier to just grind a flat.

Cheers,
Brad

- MrUnix

Well, these are great answers. Thank you guys!!
I at least want to look into bearings just for knowledge. It would be nice to at least know what I have, if/when it comes time to replace.

Right now it looks like I have ball bearings on the pulley side of the shaft, and I’m not sure what kind of bearing it is on the opposite end. It’s not ball or tapered roller. It looks fixed, and the shaft just rotates inside of it. Not sure how to better describe it.

Looking at different articles, I swear I’ve seen those deep groove radial ball bearings on both sides of the shaft. Am I wrong in thinking that’s a thing? Is that something worth looking into?

Again. Thank everyone for all of the help!

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MrUnix

4230 posts in 1664 days


#10 posted 08-29-2016 09:55 PM

It is possible that it has a bronze sleeve bearing at the back end (end where the electric hooks up), but that is unusual as they need to be oiled every now and then – and just TRY to get a pool owner to go out every few months to put a couple of drops of oil in their motor! If it does, check for an oil fill hole somewhere on the end bell.

Cheers,
Brad

-- Brad in FL - To be old and wise, you must first be young and stupid

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derrick3636

72 posts in 603 days


#11 posted 08-29-2016 10:31 PM



It is possible that it has a bronze sleeve bearing at the back end (end where the electric hooks up), but that is unusual as they need to be oiled every now and then – and just TRY to get a pool owner to go out every few months to put a couple of drops of oil in their motor! If it does, check for an oil fill hole somewhere on the end bell.

Cheers,
Brad

- MrUnix


Maybe like this little guy right here?

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MrUnix

4230 posts in 1664 days


#12 posted 08-29-2016 10:39 PM

Maybe like this little guy right here?
- derrick3636

There you go! Use a good non-detergent 20W oil (3-in-1 makes an electric motor specific oil that you can find in the borg). There should be (usually) some felt packing around the sleeve bearing that absorbs the oil and distributes it evenly over time. If you already have the motor open, it might not be a bad idea to pull the felt, clean it good in a solvent, and re-saturate before you re-assemble the motor. Those things are dirt magnets and get really nasty dirty over time, and the motor you have is pretty old.

Cheers,
Brad

PS: Check the sleeve bearing and shaft for wear and damage… hopefully they are fine, as it’s a bugger to press out those things.

-- Brad in FL - To be old and wise, you must first be young and stupid

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nightguy

213 posts in 127 days


#13 posted 08-29-2016 10:41 PM



Here s the motor. I took everything apart. I haven t located numbers on the bearings yet, so I can upgrade, but I ll keep looking. Everything looks to be in good shape.

- derrick3636

In your 4th pic there is a dimple on the shaft, it might be a good spot to anchor a pulley with a cone head set screw if that spot works laterally to align with the cutter head pulley.

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derrick3636

72 posts in 603 days


#14 posted 08-29-2016 11:02 PM



Maybe like this little guy right here?
- derrick3636

There you go! Use a good non-detergent 20W oil (3-in-1 makes an electric motor specific oil that you can find in the borg). There should be (usually) some felt packing around the sleeve bearing that absorbs the oil and distributes it evenly over time. If you already have the motor open, it might not be a bad idea to pull the felt, clean it good in a solvent, and re-saturate before you re-assemble the motor. Those things are dirt magnets and get really nasty dirty over time, and the motor you have is pretty old.

Cheers,
Brad

PS: Check the sleeve bearing and shaft for wear and damage… hopefully they are fine, as it s a bugger to press out those things.

- MrUnix

I’ll take a look at those better. Nothing looked damaged with my initial inspection.
So now that there’s a better idea as to what I have, is there any reason I shouldn’t use this motor? Of course I still need to get the pulley figured out, but there are a ton of resources out there for those.


In your 4th pic there is a dimple on the shaft, it might be a good spot to anchor a pulley with a cone head set screw if that spot works laterally to align with the cutter head pulley.

- nightguy

I noticed that. Ill look into that kind of set screw. Are you talking about using that dimple and a set screw along with grinding a flat spot on a different side of the shaft and using another flat bottom set screw?

The pulley that came with the jointer had 2 holes for set screws that are 90* apart. This pulley won’t work with the current motor, but if this is what you’re talking about I’ll have a better idea what to look for.

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nightguy

213 posts in 127 days


#15 posted 08-30-2016 12:16 AM

This one, look at the pick of Allen Safety St Screws, Conical would go in the dimple, Cup or flat on a key way or a flat spot on the shaft, click on the pic to inlarge.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_screw

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