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Forum topic by JDCrae posted 08-02-2016 12:32 PM 538 views 0 times favorited 11 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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JDCrae

29 posts in 652 days


08-02-2016 12:32 PM

Hey all!

I am about to get started on my Butcher Block Island, but realized I missed a very important aspect of the design. Lumber is already milled and cut so redesigning the project is not an option.

The island is about 84 inches long, 60.25 inches wide at one end, and 39 inches at the other. This island top rests on very deep cabinets and on the opposite side we store the dogs stuff, recycling etc.

This is where I made the mistake. Because we don’t use that side for its intended purpose, I forgot the other side has a large overhang designed for stool seating. We will eventually put stools there so I need to make sure its strong enough.

Here is the problem. My boards are going length wise along that 84 inch length. I have found some nice braces from fastcap that are specifically designed for this, but the question is how many of them should I use? Is there a rule of thumb for how many supports per linear ft?

Its my fault for not thinking about that side. We never see it when we are working in the kitchen and we don’t use it all that much.

Thanks for any and all help!


11 replies so far

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prad

15 posts in 133 days


#1 posted 08-02-2016 01:17 PM

How thick is the top? What are the dimensions of just the overhanging part? How far does it extend beyond the cabinets and how wide is that section?

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JDCrae

29 posts in 652 days


#2 posted 08-02-2016 01:20 PM

The top will be at 2 inches thickness when finished.
The overhang measures 13 7/8 inches, and the overhang runs the full length of the island, 84 inches.

Along that 84 inch length, 25 inches of it is 60.25 wide, the rest of that 84 inch length is 39 inches wide.

The actual dimension of the overhang section is 13 7/8 by 84 inches, 2 inches thick

Material is kiln dried Hickory, edge grain up, 1 inch wide pieces

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prad

15 posts in 133 days


#3 posted 08-02-2016 03:25 PM

So the only overhang is ~14 inches? I’m getting thrown off by the different widths along the 84” length, but that sounds like that doesn’t make a 2 foot deep overhang or something like that or you’ve already got that support figured out.

Someone else will have to give you real advice on how many braces you might need. Speaking out my tushy, I’d go with whatever might divide the number of stools evenly. 4 stools, use 5 braces, 2 for the ends and 3 dividers, or something along those lines. My thought is that 14 inches isn’t too much overhang for 2 inch thick counter top even considering the grain orientation. So 2 ought to be good enough structure wise.

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avsmusic1

42 posts in 150 days


#4 posted 08-02-2016 05:49 PM

It’s not a scientific answer but I’m with prad on breaking up the seating with the supports.

What fastcap supports are you using? They don’t have specs that could help you determine the number of supports?

View JBrow's profile

JBrow

818 posts in 385 days


#5 posted 08-02-2016 10:23 PM

JDCrae,

It seems to me the number of support brackets depends on the length and width of the cantilever, the strength of the top, the strength of the attachments securing the un-cantilevered section of the top, and the maximum load on the unsupported edge of the butcher block top. Since your cantilever is not all that much, the top is 2” thick, and even with weak attachments to the cabinets, the counter balancing effect of un-cantilevered section of the top adds to its stability, I would think two brackets positioned at each end of the cantilever are all that would be required.

In our kitchen remodel, I installed a breakfast bar top on a 2 X 6 stub wall and used screws through the 2×6 framing to secure the top to the framing. The bloodwood top is ¾” thick. It has an edge buildup around the perimeter consisting of 1-1/2” wide x ¾” edge face glued build-up strips. It is cantilevered off the stub wall by 14” and the top is 78” long. It is supported by a 2-1/4” thick solid wooden bracket on one end and by a ledger cleat on the wall at the opposite end of the bar. This has proven itself plenty of support for dinnerware and elbows. The breakfast bar is set 42” high, so I do not worry about anyone sitting on the cantilevered top. I doubt the support system I used would be strong enough to provide support for an adult seated on the cantilever. If you wish to support the weight of an adult seated on the cantilever (I have seen adults sitting on a 36” high countertop), additional support would probably be a good idea.

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JDCrae

29 posts in 652 days


#6 posted 08-03-2016 10:22 AM

Thanks for all the input guys. I apologize if my explanation of the dimensions was confusing. This island as I call it, is an L shape, so the width is greater at one end, than it is at the other. That is the reason for the two different widths.

I am still debating which brackets to go with. I do not have a stub wall underneath this overhang, as there is one base cabinet facing the overhang and I would not want to cover that up. I talked to fastcap about their speed braces, and they suggested 6 across that length. Seems like massive overkill considering each is rated for 300lbs, and were designed for granite, but I supposed, as others have mentioned, going overboard might be a good thing. While I can’t imagine a situation where an adult would want to sit on that overhang, anything is possible. Think I may install 4 for starters – and go from there.

I was not planning on doing a sub base, of ply for example, but some people have suggested it, I think because of the overhang. Is this something that you guys would recommend?

Thanks

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JBrow

818 posts in 385 days


#7 posted 08-03-2016 03:31 PM

JDCrae,

I did not mean to suggest that you needed a stub wall to support your countertop, though if you include one, it could be used to support the countertop overhang. My description was intended to describe how I successfully supported our breakfast bar top at each end. If I had no wall to support one end of the breakfast bar, I would have used a bracket. In summary, no stub wall is, in my opinion required.

Since most of the countertop is supported by the cabinets, I doubt that securing the countertop to the cabinets in the traditional way would cause any problems. Fasteners though cabinets’ upper squaring corner brackets into the top is probably enough to keep the countertop from shifting or lifting off the cabinets (allowing for expansion and contraction of the top). As a result, I see no reason for a sub base for the countertop beyond making the countertop a little easier to fasten to the cabinets. Since a sub base for the countertop lying on the cabinets would elevate the finished countertop, some trim or other means would probably be needed to cover the edges of the sub base, unless you are making the cabinets and incorporating the countertop sub base.

Since the countertop is 2” thick, I suspect that no support of the cantilever is really necessary. I you are like me, I suspect you will keep people from sitting on the countertop; besides the bar stools will be an obstacle for anyone who might think hopping up there is a good idea. This being the case, load on the cantilevered area of the countertop will be small. Nonetheless, I just feel better by providing some support. The more brackets added, the greater the support so the question becomes how much insurance support is needed. Unfortunately the added support comes at the cost of inconvenience and diminished utility. The additional brackets will be knee bangers and can scratch up the bar stools.

One option, if unsure of the number of supporting brackets, is to install the absolute minimum you think you need. If after a while you conclude that additional support is required, adding the additional support would probably be easily done. This approach would allow you to locate any additional support brackets out of the way, based on how the countertop is used every day.

In summary, my approach would be to install the countertop without a sub base and no stub walls. Install two support brackets at each end of the countertop. If after a few months of use, you decide additional support is needed, add the support at that time.

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JDCrae

29 posts in 652 days


#8 posted 08-05-2016 10:25 AM

I cannot thank you enough for the input. As you suggest, my plan is to finish building and installing the countertop, and will likely start with 4 brackets. By using the stealthbrace seen here- it prevents any knee banging issues I was worried about. If it looks like I need more- That can be done afterward, though I will have to rout out the pieces for them in the cabinets beforehand so they would slide in. Will start a build thread when the dust starts flying!

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bondogaposis

4034 posts in 1816 days


#9 posted 08-05-2016 01:02 PM

You could also put a decorative turned column on each end.

-- Bondo Gaposis

View HickWillis's profile

HickWillis

75 posts in 124 days


#10 posted 08-05-2016 07:36 PM

Don’t mean to hijack the thread, but I am doing something similar to JD, except I want to have my boards running perpendicular to the way his is setup. Would I need a brace or would the section of the top that is supported by the cabinet be enough to stop it from sagging?

-- -Will

View JBrow's profile

JBrow

818 posts in 385 days


#11 posted 08-05-2016 10:32 PM

HickWillis,

If your top is 1-1/2” or more thick cantilevered no more than 14” I doubt any support would be required. However, I would personally feel more confident if the cantilever is supported at each end, mainly to reduce any stress of the cabinet fasteners holding the top in place. If it is really long a center support could also be a good idea. If unsure about center supports, you could install the top making provision for additional support, as JDCrae is planning to do, and then add the additional support if the test of time demonstrates the necessity.

Changing the orientation of the top would increase resistance to splitting along the grain lines. Otherwise I am not sure any more strength would be imparted.

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