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Forum topic by JerryLH posted 06-13-2016 02:36 AM 535 views 0 times favorited 15 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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JerryLH

104 posts in 776 days


06-13-2016 02:36 AM

Good day all!!
Once again I’m looking for advice. LJs has provided me advice on most anything I have searched in the past—- thanks.
I have this fairly large ’old, dried out’ out piece of redwood. After using a portion of one end of the slab – the remaining piece is appx – 3.5”t x 31”widest x 70”length (see pic). My goal is to end up with the thickest redwood veneer I can glue to a substrate—- and end up with a “thickly” veneered substrate (top and/or bottom)—which ‘should not’—‘hopefully not’ have future wood movement problems.
A little thinking ahead to retirement – where I’m fortunate enough to currently be – a couple of the tools I was able to acquire over the years was a used 1220 Timberking bandmill and a used 26” Woodmaster drum sander. I’ve been able to enjoy both tools – but I’ve never used them with a specific veneer – job/need/mostly want in mind.
My thought – split my slab lengthwise with the thought of getting the best veneer sheets possible, (I plan to glue the lengthwise cut veneers back together) – to ultimately be glued the yet unidentified substrate.
When I cut the other end I was surprised to find how well the dried and seemingly very stable redwood milled out.
Soooo -all that said, I guess some the questions is, the max veneer thickness, preferred substrate & adhesive options—all without future damaging movement. (If you happen to have a map to the fountain of youth————————-

Thanks & Regards Jerry

-- Develop your character -- for it becomes your destiny. Jerry - Mannford, Ok


15 replies so far

View Fred Hargis's profile

Fred Hargis

3942 posts in 1958 days


#1 posted 06-13-2016 01:09 PM

I’ve always considered it to be 1/8”, finished thickness.

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

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shipwright

7172 posts in 2262 days


#2 posted 06-13-2016 01:39 PM

My preference is 1/16” but I agree with Fred that 1/8” is a reasonable “max”. The thicker the veneer – the more force it will have to destabilize the substrate.

-- Paul M ..............If God wanted us to have fiberglass boats he would have given us fibreglass trees. http://thecanadianschooloffrenchmarquetry.com/

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JerryLH

104 posts in 776 days


#3 posted 06-13-2016 03:50 PM

Thank you both for your replies. By the way – my end goal is to build a dining room table.
If I could garner a bit more info—
1. I have 3 or 4 sheets of 4’ x 5’ x 1 3/4” mdf. Would that be an acceptable substrate or should I use a quality plywood—(such as)?
2. Veneering the underside of substrate? Can I use the thinnest of veneered plywood for the bottom side of the substrate?
3. Like most woodworkers, over the years I have used white wood glues and contact cements. Given that my wood is bone dry of moisture – would contact cement allow for slightly more future wood movement than white wood glue.

Thanks so much for the feedback. I’ve mentioned it before, but I’m always very appreciative of those who are willing to share the knowledge they have gained over years of hard work.

Regards, Jerry

-- Develop your character -- for it becomes your destiny. Jerry - Mannford, Ok

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Fred Hargis

3942 posts in 1958 days


#4 posted 06-13-2016 03:56 PM

Personally, I wouldn’t use MDF…but it is an acceptable substrate. It’s very heavy, and not very stiff over long spans, so depending on the size of your table you may not be able to move it (easily, weight) and it might develop some sag if not well supported underneath. You could buy some “backer veneer” for the bottom (Veneer Supplies has it). Also I wouldn’t use contact cement, probably a plastic resin glue would be my choice. But that’s just my opinion.

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

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JerryLH

104 posts in 776 days


#5 posted 06-13-2016 04:55 PM

thank You very much for the feedback.

-- Develop your character -- for it becomes your destiny. Jerry - Mannford, Ok

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Ger21

1047 posts in 2596 days


#6 posted 06-13-2016 11:33 PM

1) MDF is a good substrate.
2) Top and bottom veneers should be the same thickness.
3) You don’t want any movement, you want the most rigid glue line possible. Contact cement is not an acceptable adhesive for wood veneer, unless it’s thin paper backed veneer. Even then it would be a good choice for a table.

-- Gerry, http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/index.html http://www.jointcam.com

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JerryLH

104 posts in 776 days


#7 posted 06-13-2016 11:41 PM

Thank you Gerry. Sometimes – when we’ve done ‘a’ thing for quite some time – the details of what we do, seems hard to recall – to those of us who haven’t done ‘that’ thing – those small details are invaluable.

Thanks Again – Jerry

-- Develop your character -- for it becomes your destiny. Jerry - Mannford, Ok

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shipwright

7172 posts in 2262 days


#8 posted 06-14-2016 05:07 AM

+1 to not using contact cement. The best glues for veneering are hard drying glues like urea formaldehydes hide glues. My personal choice would be either hot hide glue, which could be attached by hammer veneering or liquid hide glue (specifically Old Brown Glue) which has less of a learning curve.
If it were me, I would hammer veneer with HHG.
I know lots of people use pva glues (white /yellow glue) for veneering but I don’t like them as they are prone to creeping. I have a few old pieces around that I did with pva that I wish I had done with a hard setting glue.

-- Paul M ..............If God wanted us to have fiberglass boats he would have given us fibreglass trees. http://thecanadianschooloffrenchmarquetry.com/

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JerryLH

104 posts in 776 days


#9 posted 06-14-2016 01:53 PM

Thanks Paul. Each reply I have gotten has been informative for me – I appreciate it.

I’m going to cut this slab lengthwise (to a width acceptable to my bandmill ). Based on the needed width (of my table top to be) I believe I will need three sheets of the veneer. Two of them will have a matching edge – one will be a surface match of one of the other two (pieces of veneer).
I’m probably making this too tough – but;
1. How should I lay out the three pieces of veneer that will eventually become top or bottom surface.
2. Should the three pieces be edge glued before gluing to substrate?
3. If I should use one of the 4’ x 5’ x 1 3/4” mdf sheets I have – my substrate will be larger than the width of the three sheets of veneer. In my non-knowing ways – it seems as if the wider (than the veneer) substrate would allow me to apply my veneer and ‘then’ cut to the final width after the veneer is applied (final width before applying edge band. I ‘hope’ to use the cut off live edges of the slab as the edge banding.). Good, bad, right wrong?
If I ever get this table built I’ll just have to sign the thing; Built by LJs.
Again – Thank You, Jerry

-- Develop your character -- for it becomes your destiny. Jerry - Mannford, Ok

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shipwright

7172 posts in 2262 days


#10 posted 06-15-2016 01:19 AM

I think your plan sounds reasonable although MDF is not my favourite substrate. I would assemble the three pieces with their top surfaces taped together with veneer tape or masking tape across the joint first and then a piece along the joint. If you use masking tape, stretch it on the cross strips. Then when you apply glue to the veneer, hinge it and get glue between the pieces before pressing it to the substrate.

.... Lots of good furniture has MDF in it and your 1 3/4” stuff would be very stiff (and heavy) but I would lean toward plywood personally.

-- Paul M ..............If God wanted us to have fiberglass boats he would have given us fibreglass trees. http://thecanadianschooloffrenchmarquetry.com/

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JerryLH

104 posts in 776 days


#11 posted 06-15-2016 12:46 PM

Its very good to get up early – get a cup of coffee – go out on the deck – enjoy the morning sun – have a cup of coffee – the Baltimore Orioles singing and eating grape jelly from the feeders—- open up LJs and more great advice offered for me to enjoy – and I do. Thanks Paul.
Paul, I hope you don’t interpret my question(s) as questioning ‘your’ knowledge.
Having said that, (so that I better understand), what are the benefits of plywood over MDF when applying veneer. To go a step further (providing I can overcome my frugalness) what type and thickness of plywood would you recommend?

Regards, Jerry

-- Develop your character -- for it becomes your destiny. Jerry - Mannford, Ok

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shipwright

7172 posts in 2262 days


#12 posted 06-15-2016 02:21 PM

The thickness will depend on the support it has but often you can use an extra layer around the edges to give more stiffness and the appearance of thickness while minimizing weight and expense. For example 3/4” top with a two or three inch wide second layer around the perimeter to give the appearance of 1 1/2”.
My problem with MDF is a at least partly just prejudice against it not being “real wood” but I also have had bad experiences with it when trying to remove / repair veneer applied with hide glue that would have been easy if it had been on plywood or solid wood.
One of the great advantages of hide glue is its reversibility, something you won’t need if you make no mistakes and the piece never needs repair. It requires simply water and heat to remove it …..... but if it is on MDF….... The water and heat will also start to break down the substrate.

-- Paul M ..............If God wanted us to have fiberglass boats he would have given us fibreglass trees. http://thecanadianschooloffrenchmarquetry.com/

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JerryLH

104 posts in 776 days


#13 posted 06-16-2016 01:13 AM

Thanks again. I ‘completely’ understand the prejudice. I’ve not used mdf before. I own it because it was too good a deal to pass up – I’ve had it for several years now – (I bet some of you know that kind of deal – you don’t need it – it likely won’t get used – but it was just soooo cheap – ya just couldn’t pass it up).
I would like to ask, what kind of plywood – Baltic birch (hope not), 3/4 A/B——- ?

Regards, Jerry

-- Develop your character -- for it becomes your destiny. Jerry - Mannford, Ok

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shipwright

7172 posts in 2262 days


#14 posted 06-16-2016 05:11 AM

Baltic birch is great but there are lots of good cabinet grade plywoods that are less expensive. The standard 3/4 birch is often fine. Look for flat sheets and use your.judgement.

-- Paul M ..............If God wanted us to have fiberglass boats he would have given us fibreglass trees. http://thecanadianschooloffrenchmarquetry.com/

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JerryLH

104 posts in 776 days


#15 posted 06-16-2016 11:45 AM

Thank you muchly Paul—you deserve a break. Have a great day.

Regards, Jerry

-- Develop your character -- for it becomes your destiny. Jerry - Mannford, Ok

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