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Forum topic by Bob #2 posted 04-21-2010 03:49 PM 2596 views 1 time favorited 20 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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Bob #2

3808 posts in 2671 days


04-21-2010 03:49 PM

Topic tags/keywords: sanding sealer water based finish resource tip

After spending about 20 hours building a project in the shop I decided to switch to a water-based finishing system to complete this job.
The system consists of a sanding sealer, and dye based stain, and finish coat varnish.
I thought I had read their instructions correctly and proceeded to apply first the sanding sealer and then attempted to put the stain on top of that. Total disaster .
The sanding sealer completely blocked the penetration of the stain in some spots and in others allowed it to bleed right through.
I tested another piece of wood using the dye based stain alone and found I had no control whatsoever over the color of the product without diluting it with water. In doing that I raised hell with the grain. I tried to lightly sand the grain before applying the sealer but found I could easily sand through the dye coating exposing raw wood again.

I stopped there and contacted customer service and they responded by telling me I had used the wrong sequence of applications and that’s what was causing my problem.
I read the writeup on the product again and found they referred to the Sanding Sealer as the “base coat” leading me to believe they wanted it to go on the “base”. ( Stupid Bob)

p.s. that’s exactly where Charlie’s base coat goes BTW.

Thanks for getting this Right Charlie!

I have now carefully sanded and removed the last visual remnants of the sanding sealer and dye from my project and was about to attempt to follow the instructions received from customer service when I found this video.
As usual, our good friend Charles Neil has dealt with the problem I was experiencing head on and found a practical and elegant solution.
I’ll be contacting Charlie today to bring some of this product into my inventory here.

I just wish I’d seen his video last week instead of this week.

Cheers
Bob

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner


20 replies so far

View teenagewoodworker's profile

teenagewoodworker

2727 posts in 2418 days


#1 posted 04-21-2010 03:53 PM

this does look really cool. I’ve got a boatload of cherry right now so I’ll be ordering a few quarts later on today.

View Tony's profile

Tony

978 posts in 2680 days


#2 posted 04-21-2010 05:42 PM

I have no time at the moment to watch video, but I use both Cherry and Birch quite a lot, both of which are very prone to uneven staining.

For the Cherry, which I alway leave as a natural colour, regardless of what the customer wants (white paint once), I usually seal the project with Osmo Polyx Oil (2 coats) then sand either to P320 (low sheen) or as high as P1000 (High sheen), then add a Cherry coloured paste wax form Fiddes – this ages the cherry nicely and provides an even coloration.

For the Birch, this is very difficult, sealing the wood is no problem, but sometimes the customer wants it as dark as walnut, I still have not found a 100% satisfactory solution. But it is normally cheaper the make the project from Walnut, rather than trying to imitate it.

-- Tony - All things are possible, just some things are more difficult than others! - SKYPE: Heron2005 (http://www.poydatjatuolit.fi)

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Bob #2

3808 posts in 2671 days


#3 posted 04-21-2010 06:59 PM

Hi Teenagewoodworker.
If this product works half as well as it does in Charlie’s demo you are going to be one happy little man.

Hi Tony:
Nice to hear you’re staying busy and still have time to join in on this discussion.
I look forward to hearing your comments after you’ve had a chance to review the video.

In this particular job that I reference here I was using Alder as a cheap substitute for walnut in this area.
Unfortunately, it does come with its own set of drawbacks in that it is not as hard as most hardwoods and has a tendency to absorb stains unevenly.
I outsmarted myself by trying to switch to a new to a “new to me” system from General finishes that offered water-based stains dies sanding sealer and an interior and exterior water-based varnish. I’ve used such products in the past from various manufacturers and did not really expect that type of problems that around into with this product. Personal information that I used from the suppliers catalog was confusing. The tech suggested that I use the sanding sealer as the base coat which to me meant the first coat.
After speaking with customer service representative they told me that I should have gone to the general finishes website before using the product. They also suggested that the dye stained should be applied first and then subsequently coded with the sanding sealer before applying the finish coats of varnish.
Charlie Niels product approaches the situation differently.
He applies his pre-stained coatings to the wood surface prior to applying the dye stain.
That is exactly what I tried to do. The results were awful.
At any rate watch the video and let me know what you think.

Cheers
Bob

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

View Tony's profile

Tony

978 posts in 2680 days


#4 posted 04-21-2010 07:52 PM

Interesting Video, as always from Mr. Neil. I think he must have shares in the paper towel company, the rate he was using them.

I have tried a lot of products, but I have never seen such good control before – Maybe I missed it, but I do not think you can apply an oil on top of this product, but it would seem really worthwhile for staining. I am just about to write to him and see if he can ship overseas – if so I get a gallon to try it out, the shipping will cost more than the product, but it could well be worth it.

If it works really well on Birch, I can see this being very popular here, as we have a lot of wood turners and even more birch trees /100 km2, than we do people in the country.

-- Tony - All things are possible, just some things are more difficult than others! - SKYPE: Heron2005 (http://www.poydatjatuolit.fi)

View reggiek's profile

reggiek

2240 posts in 1920 days


#5 posted 04-21-2010 08:27 PM

Bob, interesting info…thanks for posting. I typically do not stain alot of woods…but when I do…I find that I have had to stain…sand it back to flatten out the blotches….then stain again…etc…etc..until I get the color I want…then I can finally get to the protectiing coat of poly or shellac. This sounds like it will save alot of time.

-- Woodworking.....My small slice of heaven!

View Bob #2's profile

Bob #2

3808 posts in 2671 days


#6 posted 04-21-2010 08:55 PM

Reggie:
Here’s the problem I ended with due to applying the sealer first then the stain.
First, here’s the project prior to my staining problems:

From future projects 2010

From future projects 2010

Here we are after starting the strip off of the blotched stain.

From Recently Updated

As you can see on the test board the stain penetrate the sanding sealer in some spots and held out in others.
The bottom test without sealer was fairly even but too dark for my liking
From Recently Updated

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

View Tony's profile

Tony

978 posts in 2680 days


#7 posted 04-21-2010 09:24 PM

Hi Bob, could you e-mail me the plans for this chair if you have them?

-- Tony - All things are possible, just some things are more difficult than others! - SKYPE: Heron2005 (http://www.poydatjatuolit.fi)

View MyFathersSon's profile

MyFathersSon

180 posts in 1963 days


#8 posted 04-21-2010 09:44 PM

Definitely sounds worth a try.
Most recently I built a bookcase out of radiata pine stained Minwax Red Mahogony.
(their choice—- they wanted the dark color—but would not go for the cost of the better wood)
I prepped with Minwax Prestain Conditioner prepping and staining per lable directions.
It was definitely better than staining straight to bare wood by a long shot.
But still far from blotch free.
Fortunately the customer was happy—but i wasn’t.
Always looking for better solutions.
Hope I am staying on topic here and not hijacking the thread—-
Does anyone have any thoughts on the relative merits of Mr. Neils product and the oil-based Minwax version?
Or on the Minwax product itself?

-- Those who insist it can't be done - should politely refrain from interrupting those who are doing it.

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MyFathersSon

180 posts in 1963 days


#9 posted 04-21-2010 09:46 PM

Tony—
They wanted you to PAINT CHERRY????!!!!
That should be a felony.

-- Those who insist it can't be done - should politely refrain from interrupting those who are doing it.

View Bob #2's profile

Bob #2

3808 posts in 2671 days


#10 posted 04-21-2010 10:51 PM

MFS, If seeing is believing the video is pretty much a clincher for me.

Bob

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

View CharlesNeil's profile

CharlesNeil

1127 posts in 2520 days


#11 posted 04-22-2010 04:49 PM

hey all, I have some aspen, bass wood and soft maple as well as hard maple , getting ready to film another video on the stuff, more instruction and testing so you can see for your self, it does work under oil stains, the thing is the product unlike most prestains , takes color.. i will post it as soon as we get it done… I want you to fully understand how and why it works and how to deal with it and exactly what to expect , and as well if something goes wrong, I wish I had some alder .. alot of you guys use it , but I think the aspen which is as blotch prone as it gets will tell the tale…I am also looking to see if it is possible to concentrate it , I hope we can do that , to save on shipping , its gotten to be absurd , as well we are looking to see how and what we have to do to get it to Our Canadian folks, as well we are looking to see if we can find a Canadian distributor , again to save $ for all of us , but I do not want to get too far ahead of myself, I have tested and tested as well as had other test it, and a couple finish companies do all the test on it, all is good , but the true test is when it hits the real world and folks use it, so we decided to release it , It does as good as I showed you , but I want you to be the final judge , if this product is as good as I personally think it is , it will change finishing , simply put , and then we look to seeing how we can distribute it , as economically as possible, and hopefully be able to have it produced more efficiently , I was in here last night until 10:30 measuring and mixing , and canning , the Girls are putting on labels and shipping to day… so if you get some, I assure you I personally mixed it , canned it , and hammered the lid on , this is one of those things , that while we certainly want to make some money on, but does not deserve to be exploited , it cures too many issues, so our goal is to make a little and sell alot… understand I am just like you , just been at this game along time , so now you know… nothing fancy here , what you see is what you get , like it or not , as i have said many times , I’m not here to impress anyone, but I am here to try to help.. as best I can… so if you have any questions , comments or suggestions , Im all ears ..

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Bob #2

3808 posts in 2671 days


#12 posted 04-22-2010 05:05 PM

Charlie:
Guys like you set the bar for dedication and ethical business models.
I really appreciate those character attribuutes in today’s corporate world.
If there is anything I can do to help you get your product up and going just give me a call.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge and expertise with us all once again.

Highest regrds
Bob

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

View CharlesNeil's profile

CharlesNeil

1127 posts in 2520 days


#13 posted 04-22-2010 05:16 PM

Does anyone have any thoughts on the relative merits of Mr. Neils product and the oil-based Minwax version?
Or on the Minwax product itself?

my product is water base , what I developed is a combination of several modified acrylic resins, Glycol ether’s and a high solids PVA glue I had made , that combined together using the water base technology produces a semi penetrable product ,that will seal but allow absorption, as I explained in the video the issue is filling and hardening the soft grain, the reason we tell you to wipe it wet, this allows the soft grain to pick up more than the hard grain, then when dry , scuff sand it smooth to remove any fuzz or grain raising, so no need to do so prior , this takes care of it, then apply a second coat , this completes the seal ,if you will , in some cases , it may require 3 coats,but only in sever cases, you have to do some testing to be sure, oil prestains are typically BLO , thinned with mineral spirits , the problem is they can soak too deep and the surface is unprotected, as well they seal too well, so color retention is lost, if you did the 2 coat thing with an oil you would not get any color to take , the other thing is oil is almost irreversible , its soaked in and its there, my stuff is easily sanded off if need be, it is also somewhat dissolvable with water , but you have do some scrubbing, here was the balance, make it hard enough to seal , but not so much it over sealed, that’s why we tell you when applying a water base dye or stain, to apply it wet, level it out and walk away , don’t over work it, or you could reduce the seal, that’s why the second video, to be sure everyone understands how to use it, the stuff is very simple, but like anything else it has its limits and quirks, and i want you to fully understand it .. I want you to get the results I gotten… Ok I have typed enough so I will shut up for now….

View Tony's profile

Tony

978 posts in 2680 days


#14 posted 04-22-2010 05:18 PM

He is a man after my own heart in many ways – I would rather sell a hundred at $1, than 1 at $100 – you get more happy people in the world that way.

I am just waiting here back from Mr Neil’s organisation, on them shipping this product to me in Finland (hopefully as it is water based, it should not be a hazardous material)

Bob, Thanks for the PM – it is exactly what I needed – Got to go, 4 different projects on the go at the moment, just wish I had this magic formula at the moment for the “Birch project”

-- Tony - All things are possible, just some things are more difficult than others! - SKYPE: Heron2005 (http://www.poydatjatuolit.fi)

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MyFathersSon

180 posts in 1963 days


#15 posted 04-22-2010 05:38 PM

Mr Neil—
As others have mentioned—I GREATLY admire your spirit and attitude.
And you are right – the only way to tell what is best for a given task—is to try the options.
I will be ordering some.
For one thing—I believe in supporting independent entrepreneurs whenever possible.
And—it sounds like an excellent product. I have a project coming up that should be a good test.

ONE THING—
My projects tend to be small – so I seldom use all of any container of any product at one time.
Do you have any estimates on the shelf-life of this product?

-- Those who insist it can't be done - should politely refrain from interrupting those who are doing it.

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