Cutting circles on router table

Niki, I am continually impressed by your ingenuity. You regularly devise ways of doing things and after I’ve seen them they seem so straightforward, and still something I wouldn’t think of. Count me as one of your fans.

-- When you give someone a chance it may well be their last.

Very cool, Niki! I love all those improvised clamps too. You are the great improviser!

-- Tom, Surfside Beach, SC - Romans 8:28

Thank you so much

Russel
That’s what happens when I don’t have a trammel but, even if I had, I feel better and safer to turn the board instead of turning around and around the board…

I’m planning now something with fixed pivot that I can move to any distance on the router table to get any circle diameter….up to some limit of course…

Tom
Those clamps are not “improvisation” :-) I use them any time I need good grip….I posted them somewhere…

Regards
niki

You’ve made so many neat jigs, you aught to write a book.

-- Bruce from Central New York

Why don’t you just make a trammel ?
You are drilling holes in your table for this , am I right?
Also in your material in several spots?

Bob

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

Thank you so much

Bruce
If I’ll sit down to write a book, I’ll not have time to make jigs and work in the garage….that is much more interesting than writing a book…

Bob
Till a few days ago, I did not need a trammel for my works.
I’m not drilling any holes on the router table and even the new design that I’m planning will be held with clamps to the table.

Usually, I’m using materials that cannot be used for any furniture and normally, they are left overs of Melamine and I have many of them…the one that you see on the pics was used before as a small working table…

Regards
niki

Nicki I am confused. I see a screw in the part and it looks like it is screwed to the table top?
Help me out here.
Is that big chunk of melamine and those four big clamps fitted on top of your router table?
No wonder the bit can’t reach the parts.
You should make a trammel.

Bob

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

Hi Bob

The workpiece is held to the Melamine board with a screw and boes not penetrate into the router table itself.

You are correct that the Melamine board is thick (3/4”) but the reason that the bit did not reach all the way through the workpiece was my fault…I left the depth stop locked (from previous job)....I used long bit (2”) that could easily go all the way up but…well, we all have our mistakes….

I’m planning to use 8mm (5/16”) so I shall get extra 3/8” depth.

I don’t have much of a need to cut circles but I think that with trammel I shall need also a backing board under the workpiece (held firmly to the workbench) and a carpet tape to hold the workpiece to the backer board…in my opinion, my set-up it much simpler but, it’s just me…

Regards
niki

Hi Nicki
I would also like to point out that using a 6 mm (1/4’) router bit that is 2” long is not only really tough on the router and collet but will likely prematurely ruin the bearings.

Secondly,from safety point of view the smaller diameter cutters have a tendency to work loose in most collets and even more so if they are extended bits as you have used.

It appears the your router table is about 1/2” thick, the melamine sheet is 3/4’ thick and the circle material is 3/4” thick. That makes it about 2 full inches of extension of the bit outside the router collet.

For my tastes and working technique that is not a safe set up.

I mention this because we have a number of people here just learning about woodworking machines and I would hate to see them counciled into a disaster or worse a personal injury.

I firmly believe that the trammel setup is a far safer approach than what you have shown us here.
I grant that you will have to use a nonslip surface to router against but they are only a few dollars a meter at most tool stores.
Also flipping the board overhalf way through to prevent scoring the under pad.
I note you had to do this with your set up because the bit would not reach though all the material.

Regards
Bob

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

Hi Bob

You are correct that 1/4” shank – 2” long is tough on the router and even dangerous because it can break at high loads and I would not suggest a beginner to use them but…

All the “kuntz” (German – trick) is in the way that I use it…because the router lift is outside of the table area, as you can see, I’m lifting the bit by something like 1/16” increment at every round of the workpiece and it’s very easy on the router and the bit (I can hear when it’s tough on them) and, I don’t have to stop to re-adjust the bit height.

I know that not many people are “excited” from this router lift (only a few people on other forums asked me for more detailed information) but this primitive, $1 router lift is a “gold” for me and serves me much better than a $200~$300 lift would do…even for mortising with 3/4” dia (20 mm) bit, it cuts very easy because of the small increments.

My router table is 1¼” thick and is covered with 5/16” “floor panels”
The router is connected directly to the floor panels and because I removed the router base, I lost only 5/32” (4 mm) from the maximum bit height (or depth)

I have a few long bits (already 10 years) and they are reserved for jointing, doweling and sometimes mortising.
Even when I’m jointing, I don’t “bite” more than 0.5 mm (0.02”) in one pass not to stress the long bit.

By the way, before, I was cutting occasional circles of 24” dia on the table saw (pic below)

Regards
niki

Thank you Nicki
I am no stranger to routers and must admit, at this time, I do not use a lift on my table.
I have several other methods at my disposal that help make woodworking safe efficient and enjoyable.

Cheers Bob

Here’s a two piece top tramelled and then shaped with a pattern the rest is just lathe work.

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

-- You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation. (Plato)

Wow Bob
This one is “out of my range”....beautiful

Well, of course everybody has a little bit different methods because we are not “Windows XP” that will work the same way all over the world…

Even in a small group of people you can see the differences because everybody has a little bit different opinion, abilities, capabilities and skills and I think that everybody is correct in his way….

Do you remember the Grrriper post. I would not touch it but, many others (I think that everybody except me) where singing “Hallelujah” to this “Safety device” (not legal in EU)...on the other hand, I will not work on the Table saw without riving knife and guard while many people even does not remember where they put it (still packed it the plastic bag)...everybody is correct with his way…as long as no accidents…

Tom (mot)
So correct….

Best regards
niki

Nicki: Just for the record , I wonder if you could point me to the European regulation that bans the Grr-ripper.

I see it advertised over there so now I am a bit confused with your information below:

Do you remember the Grrriper post. I would not touch it but, many others (I think that everybody except me) where singing “Hallelujah” to this “Safety device” (not legal in EU)

http://www.capellemanmachines.be/grr_ripper_veiligheids_duwstuk.htm

Cheers

Bob

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

Hi Bob

Oh yes, they sell it also in UK…it’s a free country (or countries) and you can buy everything here (btw, in UK they advertise it as a “router table push block” but, everybody knows the real purpose)

Of course you cannot control amateurs (like in USA) but for registered business the regulation states “Blade guard MUST be installed for ANY operation on the table saw” (as I remember the same OSHA regulation applies in USA) and if an inspector will come and find that somebody is operating the table saw without a guard…or in case of an accident, the guard was not installed…this guy will be in deep….trouble.

Please have a look at this site (it’s a 260kb PDF file) and you will see a few interesting things about the EU safety regulations that because of them also the amateurs are getting better and safer machines.
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis16.pdf

Regards
niki

-- You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation. (Plato)

Hey Nicki:

The picture you directed me to shows the operators body position right behind the part being cut.
BTW that push stick shown is actually set to push the work away from the fence. – How clever!

I did not think that the UK rules would apply to the EU?
You’re not in the UK are you?

I still can’t see where they (the EU) “banned” the Grr-ripper.

BTW, aren’t most cabinet shops moving out or the EU due to high wages and costly unworkable regulations?

Can you show me where that regulation is?

Regards

Bob

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

I think the issue is that the Grrripper only works with the table saw when the blade guard is off the table saw. This makes it incompatable with OSHA requirements, and I think Niki is saying it also violates the EU’s (and probably the UK’s) labor safety requirements.

-- Coffee is best with a fine layer of sawdust on top. -- http://www.north40custom.com

Peter. I was and am still asking to show me where the device is specifically banned.

That has been the context of more than a couple of messages and I have not been able to isolate the remark.

For some unknown reason, it has again, surfaced here- from an enirely different thread.

It is quite possible that your observations are correct.

I just wanted to stay with the facts.

I have no vested interest in the Grr-ripper.
I own one , I have analysed it’s beneifits to me.

Apart from that I just want to see that the truth is presented rather than an emotional opinion.

Best Regards

Bob

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

tom pass the popcorn please lol

Peter, only one of the many uses of the GRRipper involve having the guard off the saw…that is only when ripping very thin stock. For many applications using the tablesaw, the GRRipper is just an expensive and complicated push block. However, I own one and also, with no vested interest, have evaluated it’s value to me. I’m wondering about Bob’s concerns as well.

-- You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation. (Plato)

Hi Bob

The EU safety regulations are one and they are the same for all the EU countries including UK and Belgium (the site that you pointed is from Belgium). They are translated to 22 languages of the EU countries.

The Gripper is not “banned” in EU because it’s not dangerous as a tool…it cannot cause any injury by itself… unless, you through it on somebody :-) the “ban” is on using any device that requires the removal of the guard on any machine.

Please go to this site and you will see many Q&A of the EU safety comity – Brussels – Belgium (as you can see on page 3)
http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/mechan_equipment/machinery/facts.pdf
Go to page 113 and you will see that a guard must be installed on all the machines that are “manually loaded” and “manually unloaded”.

Also, please have a look on pages 115 , 116

It was just convenient for me to give you the UK safety regulations (the most easy to find) but they are the same regulations as in all the EU (that is very difficult to find).

About the picture…it’s just a drawing but, we are not afraid to stand behind the part because we have Riving Knife and “Short fence” (by law) for ripping and that combination is satisfactory to prevent kickback….the new table saws in USA are equipped with riving knife but still operated with “long fence” that can cause a kickback and maybe that’s the reason that American table saws are equipped also with “anti kickback pawls” that are not required in EU.

About the Griper, if you are visiting WoodNet you could read a few days ago that the handle just broke during operation and the guy had some thoughts about using it…very long post with many “anti” using the Gripper…

By the way, here is what the US OSHA is saing about the guard
http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=STANDARDS&p_id=9837
1910.213©(1)
Each circular hand-fed ripsaw shall be guarded by a hood which shall completely enclose that portion of the saw above the table and that portion of the saw above the material being cut. The hood and mounting shall be arranged so that the hood will automatically adjust itself to the thickness of and remain in contact with the material being cut but it shall not offer any considerable resistance to insertion of material to saw or to passage of the material being sawed.

So, there is no “ban” on the Gripper but if you’ll use it, you are not obeying even the US OSHA safety regulation.

Regards
niki

Niki, did that gentleman on Woodnet ever identify how he broke the handle on the Grripper? Having looked over the handle and construction of the unit, it escapes me on how one could possible achieve that.

-- You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation. (Plato)

Niki:
OSHA is Occupational Health and Safety only in the U.S. and does not apply to individuals .
It regulates commercial operations.

The “regulation” you tossed up for the EU from the UK. contains a disclosure that saying that the information is only a guidline. Apparently you did not take the time to read it before offering it as a defense for your argument.

I don’t know why you can’t just be satisfied with not using the gripper and or recommending it.
This fabricated defense of your positon regarding this device is wearing a little bit thin.

If you don’t wish to use it then don’t. That’s a free choice.

Saying that the use of this device is “not legal” in the EU is stretching the truth quite a bit too in that the EU has no jurisdiction in the “garage/hobby shops” of Europe just as the OSHA has none in the U.S.
So far no such Govt body even exists in Canada.
CCOHS promotes a safe and healthy working environment by providing information and advice about occupational health and safety

As for breaking the handle on the Gripper, I would like Tom, like to see how that was possible.
I suspect he broke it elsewhere and then used it on the saw.
Nothing is idiot proof.

If you look at the pic of the gripper above you will see that it will still function as it should even with the handle missing. You would have to roll over mine with a truck to damage it.
It supports itself in 4 separate places .
The handle is just one of them.

Just to bring this discussion full circle back to the “jig” that you posted originally. May I point out:
This form of a jig is discussed in the American woodworker WOODWORKING WITH THE ROUTER by Bill Hylton.
Copyright 2006
It is detailed on page 183 of the latest edition along with the comment that it is not the optimal set up for routing circles.
That’s all I was trying to point out at the outset.

You were the one that brought up the Gripper again.

Cheers

Bob

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

Bob – OSHA in the US does apply to individuals in certain cases … sort of. Me, for instance. I have been informed by the state that I am subject to OSHA requirements because I have a Federal Tax ID#. I am a sole proprietor with no LLC, no incorporation, and no employees, working out of my own shop on my property, but because I am doing business I am required to follow OSHA guidelines in my shop. I have no idea how that really contributes to the conversation, but I thought I’d throw it in there!

-- Coffee is best with a fine layer of sawdust on top. -- http://www.north40custom.com

Okay, I don’t have a vested interest in the Grrripper, I don’t own one, so I haven’t evaluated it’s value to me. I can’t even remember how to spell it most of the time! My only opinion of the Grrripper is that it looks like a complicated push block, which seems to be substantiated by Tom(mot)’s comment. Anyway, I’m not trying to make a negative comment about the Grrripper because I have no experience with it – I’m just trying to see the truth presented, as Bob suggested.

I took a look at the EU document that Niki pointed us to. Sheesh – the legal-ese is as thick in the EU as it is here. I didn’t read the whole document (I don’t have time to read all the regulations I’m supposed to follow, much less those for another country!). It appears from the language I managed to wade through that the “Recommendation For Use” is not a recommendation for how to use a piece of machinery, but a recommendation for the application of “The Directive” which seems to be the EU’s equivalent of our OSHA guidelines. If I’m reading correctly, the info on page 113 which Niki mentioned is a recommendation for application of the requirement in “The Directive” which apparently says that guards must be in place on manually loaded/unloaded machines.

It is entirely possible that I’m misreading/misinterpreting this document and the “recommendation for use” does actually refer to use of the tool. If that is the case, it’s interesting to note that OSHA has “guidelines” which, along with “recommendations,” seems to indicate options or suggestions. However, OSHA’s “guidelines” are far from optional, so it is possible that the EU’s “recommendations” are also more requirements than suggestions.

-- Coffee is best with a fine layer of sawdust on top. -- http://www.north40custom.com

-- You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation. (Plato)

Hi Bob

As I said on one of the above replies “of course you cannot control amateurs….”, if you call them “individuals”... I’ll not argue with you as English is not my native language.
But I think that if this “individual” is a “registered business”, he must comply with OSHA regulations.

Woodworking, is not “Licensed” profession like Pilot, Doctor, Lawyer etc….anybody can practice woodworking without studying or passing exams while even an “amateur” pilot must have license and comply with all the aviation laws and regulations to practice his “hobby”.

I’m sorry that I cannot present the actual regulations that clearly states that the blade guard must be installed for any operation because, those regulations are not published on the internet but you have to buy them as you can see here
http://www.standardsuk.com/shop/products_list.php?cat=1158&searchtype=category
Or here
http://www.ce-marking.org/directive-9837ec-machinery.html

And I don’t think that they are just “Guide lines”...do you think that companies like Metabo (my table saw) and others would invest time and money to develop and install riving knife or enclose all the under side of the blade to comply with the “dust control regulation” or to make the blade to become to full stop within 10 seconds….and by that increase the price to $2000 and sell less machines…if it was only “guide lines”, they could make the same table saw for half price or less and have the same profit.

Even the US OSHA is stating clearly that
“Each circular hand-fed ripsaw shall be guarded by a hood which shall completely enclose that portion of the saw above the table and that portion of the saw above the material being cut.”...
They don’t tell you that you cannot use the Gripper…as long as the blade guard is installed you can do whatever you like (I mean, if you are a “registered business”).

About my “jig”...I believe that this jig is unacceptable by the regulation but amateurs can do whatever they want…

I think, that people are not “Windows XP” that will operate the same way all over the world
Different countries have different laws and within one country, there are a few political parties and within the party, there are a few (or many) opinions on how the country should be run and everyone of them is sure that his way is the correct way…

What looks unsafe to one, looks very safe to the other….

Everybody has a little bit different way of thinking, abilities and capabilities and one way of operation that is good for one, is not good for the other…

If one does not feel safe with the gripper, I don’t think that somebody should try to convince him that “that’s the correct and safe way for you” to work on the table saw…or, if it is, maybe OSHA have to make it a law (or regulation) and force everybody to use this “safety device”

I’m just showing my jig but I never said that that’s the correct or safe way…I know that some people will not feel safe to work that way (...but will feel very safe to work without splitter and blade guard that, in my opinion, can cause much “better” injury…) and some people will feel safe to work that way (when I posted it on other forum, I was surprised by a guy that said that he is using this method for years…with pictures attached…).

I was searching for the post about the Grriper handle that broke (and about the small plastic splitter) but mysteriously both posts disappeared….I posted a question about the posts and got a PM from the moderator that “We zapped it because it had turned into a personal sniping match..” sorry…

Best regards
niki

O.K. Nicki:
You have explained your rational for you thoughts.
I will accept them now as your opinion and not necessarliy the law of the land.

So lets summarize:
1. Grr-ripper is not illegal in the EU.
2. The actual EU regulations are not availalble to you at this time so we must consider that you have not read them as yet.
3.There does not appear to be any regulation covering the use of “attachments” on the table saw in the EU, the US and Canada. ( that would have to include dozens of modifications and the beloved Board Buddies and power feeders etc.)
4. There are “guidlines” in place in each country for commercial enterprizes that hire people to perform tasks on their behalf.
5. There are guidlines for the manufacture, import and distribution of tablesaws in each country and the application of safety devices seem to be not clearly understood by any regulator at this time, hence the difference in safety devices and their application in each zone.

For what it’s worth Nicki, the reference you quoted above here pertains to hand held circular saws and not tablesaws. It would be a lot clearer for everybody if we just stuck with one tool at a time.
p.s. It’s highly unlikely that anyone would consider the use of a Grr-ripper with one of these saws at least here in Canada.

I would like to take this opportunity to say, for the record, that I am in no way endorsing the use of any tool in the work shop or workplace. I am concerned only that the information provided here on this forum is as clear and concise as possible and does not mislead the people that come here seeking advice on this craft.

We should all be aware of the fact the quotations should be properly referenced just as credits for the use of previously developed techniques should be acknowledged rather that claiming them as our own.

It’s the right thing to do.

Cheers

Bob

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

Peter, It is quite possible that the Drones of Government have included you in their net simply because you have obtained that FED ID #. It might suggest that you could or would hire people to perform tasks for you in your shop.
I am not familiar with the US law to any extent but only hazarding a wild guess.

p.s. We don’t lose our rights all at once, they are taken away one day at a time.

Cheers
Bob

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

I’m confused, so just to clarify your point, Bob – are you saying that a “hand fed rip saw” with a hood “above the table and … above the material being cut” (Niki’s quote) is the same thing as a “hand held circular saw” (Bob’s quote)? Or were you referring to a different quote from Niki? Other than the Festool, is there any hand held circular saw with a hood that fully encloses the blade above the material being cut?

Rights? Anymore, they are more like privelages granted by the government.

-- Coffee is best with a fine layer of sawdust on top. -- http://www.north40custom.com

Peter, as far as I can decipher Nicki has confused part of the regulations with those pertianing to a circular saw.
I have to think that he does not understand the differnce between the meaning of each saw type in English or has just mis read the information. At any rate it is out of context for this discussion.
Beacsue he ripped it out of context to make his point it could refere to a variety of hand held saws including chainsaws and if you use you imagiination CMS and radial arm saws as well, none of which lend themsleves to the use of a Grr-ripper.

Here’s what I am referring to:

Quoting Nicki… above

””“Even the US OSHA is stating clearly that
“Each circular hand-fed ripsaw shall be guarded by a hood which shall completely enclose that portion of the saw above the table and that portion of the saw above the material being cut.”… ””“

This has nothing to do with table saws and or the grr-ripper which he tried to congugate within his reply.

Cheers

Bob

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

Bob, you indicated you wanted to see the truth presented, so I’m trying to make sure we are calling an ace an ace and a spade a spade. I think you are interpreting “hand-fed” to mean the same as “hand-held”, which is an incorrect interpretation. You requested references be used so I have included links to the documents I mention.

The quote “Each circular hand-fed ripsaw shall be guarded by a hood which shall completely enclose that portion of the saw above the table and that portion of the saw above the material being cut” in the OSHA guidelines (1910.213(c)(1)) must refer to table saws, and here’s why:
1) The guidelines go on to state the requirement of a riving knife, which can be removed when “grooving, dadoing, or rabbeting”, and to require anti-kickback pawls. Since handheld circular saws are not generally available with riving knives, do not come with anti-kickback pawls, and are not usually used in the workplace for grooving, dadoing, or rabbeting, we have to interpret “circular hand-fed ripsaw” to mean a table saw.
2) This OSHA letter indicates that “the ‘Brett-Guard’ when properly utilized in the workplace conforms to the requirements of (1910.213(c)).” Since the Brett-Guard is a table saw guard, and OSHA approves its use on a “circular hand-fed ripsaw” we have to interpret “circular hand-fed ripsaw” to mean a table saw.
3) OSHA has a seperate guideline for “portable, power-driven circular saws” (1910.243(a)(1)(i)). Portable, power-driven circular saws would be included in (1910.213) if they were the same device as a circular hand-fed ripsaw.

Apparently OSHA doesn’t feel the need to use industry standard terms in referring to various tools, but I think by reading a paragraph or two it usually becomes clear what tool they are talking about.

Hey, Tom(mot) – have you run out of popcorn yet!?

-- Coffee is best with a fine layer of sawdust on top. -- http://www.north40custom.com

Hi Bob

Lets start with the so-called “guide lines”..as I understand your interpretation to “guide lines” is; If I want – I use it…If I don’t want – I don’t use it…
I don’t think so, I think that the “guide lines” are based on some regulations otherwise why the makers are providing us with guard, splitter and anti-kickback pawls…they could omit them and save money but, probably they must supply them because the regulations are demanding the use of those devices when operating a table saw.

This web site is the official OSHA website
http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=STANDARDS&p_id=9837
It does not look as “guide lines” as I can see those are regulations numbers…I just “Copy&Past” regulation number 1910.213©(1) but please read it again…maybe my understanding in English is poor but “circular hand-fed ripsaw….....portion of the saw above the table” looks to me very mush as what we call Table Saw and not Hand held Circular saw and as I noticed also Peter understands it like that. btw, what we call “Splitter” is called “spreader” in the OSHA reg.

On one side you are telling me that:
“For my tastes and working technique that is not a safe set up”.
“I mention this because we have a number of people here just learning about woodworking machines and I would hate to see them counciled into a disaster or worse a personal injury.”

But from the other side you are telling to the people that are “just learning about woodworking” that it’s ok to remove the guard and work with the Gripper…....

I don’t know but, do you think that they teach the students in schools to remove the guard and use the gripper…

If you will go through my posts you will see only one that my blade guard is removed…when I work with miter cutting sled…otherwise, on all my pictures you will see the riving knife and blade guard installed…not only to teach the beginners the safe way but also because I really use them all the time.

Just for the record , I wonder if you could point me to the American regulation that bans my jig or method…..

Cheers
niki

I found the pics

This is my blade guard and I had an “accidental contact” with it…

If the guard was not there…....but is was…..and I blessed it for being there

Instead of talking Gripper, we should be trying to find a micrometer to measure how fine a hair can be split. Now, how about a resounding chorus of “Peace on Earth, Good Will Toward All Men”

Tom, got any popcorn left?

-- Better to say nothing and be thought the fool... then to speak and erase all doubt.

Hey, Chip, I have a thin strip ripping jig that will split that hair way down! Just bring over the micrometer and the hair (you appear to have a better supply of hair than I do), and we’ll see how thin we can go!!

I think Tom must have burned through a year’s supply of popcorn watching this discussion!

Everyone now … “The wrong shall fail, the right prevail, with peace on Earth good will to men!”

Er, I hope we aren’t offending anyone by our reference to a particular religious holiday.

-- Coffee is best with a fine layer of sawdust on top. -- http://www.north40custom.com

Lordy Peter, is that really the whole sentence for “Peace on Earth?” Boy did I pick the wrong song. I gotta do better research from now on ;-)

-- Better to say nothing and be thought the fool... then to speak and erase all doubt.

hey Chip.. I just saw that you changed your signature!!! I’m feeling better. Maybe Santa will bring me a present after all!

-- "Functional WoodArt" by Debbie, Canada (http://www.execulink.com/~yohan)