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SawStop vs Bosch - Table saw safety suit

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Forum topic by Joe Lyddon posted 05-17-2016 07:38 PM 1919 views 0 times favorited 44 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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Joe Lyddon

9438 posts in 3516 days


05-17-2016 07:38 PM

Topic tags/keywords: sawstop vs bosch sawstop bosch law suit table saw safety legal article

Yep… SawStop is suing Bosch…

Here is more information about it...

Very interesting…

-- Have Fun! Joe Lyddon - Alta Loma, CA USA - Home: http://www.WoodworkStuff.net ... My Small Gallery: http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/showgallery.php?ppuser=1389&cat=500"


44 replies so far

View mramseyISU's profile

mramseyISU

419 posts in 1009 days


#1 posted 05-17-2016 08:00 PM

I’m not sure that tells us anything most of us didn’t already know. I’m not going to blast sawstop for protecting their patent. Patents can expire prematurely if you don’t defend them against any and all comers that resemble what you’ve done.

Now you can vilify the guys at sawstop for trying to get laws enacted to mandate their technology even though I can see why they would do it. $$$$

-- Trust me I'm an engineer.

View DrDirt's profile

DrDirt

4169 posts in 3206 days


#2 posted 05-17-2016 08:48 PM

Kind of thought this line is funny…

Craig Wilson, product manager for REAXX, said that Bosch is willing to license its Active Response Circuitry to other saw brands, and he added, “We would take any inquiries from third parties under consideration.”

isn’t that a big chunk of what Gass tried to do?
He started with a licensing agreement proposal… but the big boys said no, so he tried to mandate it, then went into business for himself.
I imagine the Bosch guys have much deeper pockets than Sawstop and a legal team, so they can grind this in the courts for years. (375,000 employees world wide and 70 Billion in sales last year)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Bosch_GmbH

-- 'Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners' ~George Carlin

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mramseyISU

419 posts in 1009 days


#3 posted 05-17-2016 09:04 PM

Bosch definitely has deeper pockets than sawstop. They’ve probably already figured out where the break-even point for them is in court before they punt.

-- Trust me I'm an engineer.

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tyvekboy

1338 posts in 2476 days


#4 posted 05-18-2016 12:47 AM

First Gass developed his invention to help save woodworkers. That WAS his initial intention. The BEST thing he did was start his own company and produce the saw himself. The WORST thing he did was try to make this technology mandatory on other table saw manufacturers.

Everyone knows the inherent hazards of working around spinning blades. There is a RIGHT way and a WRONG way in which one interfaces with all saws especially a table saw. Break the rules and you invite disaster and accidents.

Now the Bosch REAXX table saw prevents traumatic accidents just as the Sawstop table saw does. HOWEVER, the way it does it is totally different. If the Bosch table saw stopped it’s blade like the Sawstop table saw by slamming an aluminum block into the blade, then I see where Gass would have a case. However, the Bosch REAXX doesn’t destroy blades like the Sawstop does … therefore I think Gass would make better use of his money in improving his technology instead of trying to stop another company who has approached table saw safety in a totally different way.

If I had to choose between the two saws, I would opt for the Bosch REAXX. However, until I am faced with that choice … I’ll continue to use my Delta Unisaw.

For those interested … you can watch a demo on the Bosch REAXX. There are others you can watch … you’ll just have to search for them.

-- Tyvekboy -- Marietta, GA ………….. one can never be too organized

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Rick M

7913 posts in 1843 days


#5 posted 05-18-2016 01:33 AM



He started with a licensing agreement proposal… but the big boys said no, – DrDirt

Oversimplified version of what happened. Some companies did try to license it but the cost was too high for unproven technology with high liability potential.

-- http://thewoodknack.blogspot.com/

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robscastle

3392 posts in 1667 days


#6 posted 05-18-2016 07:58 AM

Well I guess it been a few years now since the sawstop technology had been developed.
As for attempting to mandate it on table saws I say no way, if you want it so be it, otherwise what will it be next Jig saws too.

To have your expensive blade totalled mid project and have to recover when doing a job already costed out I again say no way!

Tools and I might add all tools for that matter are designed to do a specific task, in the case of most saws (and I include all saws) they are designed to cut stuff introduced to them, and they do it vey well including human appendages!
Now imagine if it was mandated on all saws by federal regulations,... what our butcher shops would think of the idea.

Now if somebody came along with a better system that protected from mistakes and it didnt do any secondary damage who would you consider.

If I plane a nail I pay to repair the nick, a cost off set by normal wear and tear anyway unless you do it first up!

-- Regards Robert

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DrDirt

4169 posts in 3206 days


#7 posted 05-18-2016 03:54 PM

Now the Bosch REAXX table saw prevents traumatic accidents just as the Sawstop table saw does. HOWEVER, the way it does it is totally different. If the Bosch table saw stopped it s blade like the Sawstop table saw by slamming an aluminum block into the blade, then I see where Gass would have a case. However, the Bosch REAXX doesn t destroy blades like the Sawstop does … therefore I think Gass would make better use of his money in improving his technology instead of trying to stop another company who has approached table saw safety in a totally different way.

- tyvekboy


As I understand the lawsuit is over the ‘flesh sensing’, and not the blade brake. The ‘sensing’ is the same in both saws. But in patenting something, you also include “Alternative embodiements” and they are also covered, regardless whether your own final product is using that method.
It could be that Sawstop patented flesh sensing and included options that stop the blade (Sawstop) and alternatives that only drop the blade below the table. In that case Sawstop has a case against Bosch.

It is funny that Bosch system also requires that the blade be touched to be set off.
When they (Power Tool Institute) fought Gass… In April 2008 they told Congress that SawStop’s braking system is: dangerous because it requires the user to come in contact with the blade before activating;

Interesting that that is ‘not an issue for the anymore….

-- 'Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners' ~George Carlin

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Rick M

7913 posts in 1843 days


#8 posted 05-18-2016 03:59 PM

Next up, SS sues touch lamps.

-- http://thewoodknack.blogspot.com/

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oldnovice

5729 posts in 2831 days


#9 posted 05-18-2016 04:19 PM

How about touch screen devices Rick?
When I was at UW, a few years ago to be sure, we made a touch panel on the glass door on a trophy case because we we not allowed to add external push buttons for a student demonstration.
Touch sensing technology has been around for many years!

-- "I never met a board I didn't like!"

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DrDirt

4169 posts in 3206 days


#10 posted 05-18-2016 05:54 PM


Next up, SS sues touch lamps.

- Rick M.


That may be how Bosch wins… if a Judge decides that flesh sensing (however embodied) is an invalid patent, because the application of technology already existed.

The first judge ruled that the case would be decided on a “basic English” knowledge. So how a ‘shop person would interpret the language, rather than how a lawyer would twist what words mean (depends what the definition of ‘is’ is)
http://www.woodworkingnetwork.com/news/woodworking-industry-news/sawstop-patent-trade-case-against-bosch-wins-procedural-ruling


In effect, the ruling means that words used to explain the patents in dispute will be interpreted as a worker in a typical manufacturing operation might understand them, and not, as Bosch’s lawyers asked, the “plain English meaning” of the words – an advantage to SawStop’s case, according to analysts Eric Schweibenz and Tom Yebernetsky at IT337 LawBlog.com.

Whatever that will really mean.

-- 'Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners' ~George Carlin

View CharlesA's profile

CharlesA

3022 posts in 1261 days


#11 posted 05-18-2016 06:47 PM

This has been hashed out in many previous threads:

http://lumberjocks.com/search_results?cx=017914489645407774653%3Agwwk-zif3wk&cof=FORID%3A9&safe=high&q=sawstop+bosch+suit&sa.x=0&sa.y=0

-- "Man is the only animal which devours his own, for I can apply no milder term to the general prey of the rich on the poor." ~Thomas Jefferson

View Joe Lyddon's profile

Joe Lyddon

9438 posts in 3516 days


#12 posted 05-19-2016 12:01 AM

This article was dated March 17, 2016… I assumed there was a little something New in it… (?)

-- Have Fun! Joe Lyddon - Alta Loma, CA USA - Home: http://www.WoodworkStuff.net ... My Small Gallery: http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/showgallery.php?ppuser=1389&cat=500"

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johnstoneb

2143 posts in 1636 days


#13 posted 05-19-2016 01:27 AM

Nothing really new in it except a court date.

-- Bruce, Boise, ID

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LoneRider

27 posts in 3135 days


#14 posted 05-20-2016 03:36 AM

Flesh sensing technology, that is amusing.

Capacitive/inductive touch sensing has been around for a very long time. As a previous commentator mention touch lamps. About the only thing of interest could be in electrically isolating the arbor from the trundle. It would be interesting to see the claims of the case though.

-- Tom - Canadian in N. Texas

View Joe Lyddon's profile

Joe Lyddon

9438 posts in 3516 days


#15 posted 05-21-2016 12:35 AM

Yes… and when it comes to Electronics, it’s very easy to develop your own circuits to do what you want…
... making it easy to NOT infringe on Copyrights / Patents…

I think Bosch will WIN this battle… at least, I hope they do…

-- Have Fun! Joe Lyddon - Alta Loma, CA USA - Home: http://www.WoodworkStuff.net ... My Small Gallery: http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/showgallery.php?ppuser=1389&cat=500"

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